Thai language for newbies

[Guest]

Rough draft for 'TONES' explaination. Not complete, just putting up for comments, so far:

 

Quick Lesson - Sentence structure, tones, and vocabulary list

 

TONES -- Thai is a 'tonal' language, meaning one word can have several meanings, depending on the tone applied to it. In Thai, there are five tones; low, middle, high, rising, and falling. They will be shown at the end of a Thai word here, to show how the word must sound, to represent the meaning you are intending to apply to it, and will look like this; (l) for low, (h) for high, ® for rising, and (f) for falling. A word not showing any tone markers, should automatically be spoken in the 'middle' tone. An example is the word 'Khao'. 'Khao'® means he/him/she/her/they/or them. Khao(f) means 'rice'. So if you make the statement that "I would like to eat rice", you could easily really be saying "I want to eat him, her, them" etc., if not speaking the tones correctly. So, with this fact in mind, if you're not positive of the correct tone (and this is important..!!), it is best to speak all words in the mid tone, and let the listener decide the meaning of a particular word, by putting it into context with the rest of your sentence. This might have you sounding like a robot, but you will be much more understood.

 

Another note is that Thai's don't include emotion into their speech, as is done in English. We use tones also, but need to forget about doing it, in the same way we're used to, when speaking the Thai language. They let their language do that for them, and always place a 'question tag' (like 'mai') at the end, or directly use 'how', 'why', 'what'..etc., at the beginning. Notice the two tones we put on the word 'now', in the next two examples; ("WHAT!!,you want to go to the store NOW???") Notice the rising tone you place on 'now', to make it a question? Then say ("Damn it, I want you to go to the store, RIGHT NOW!!!"). Notice the falling tone we apply to 'now' in that statement? Another example; ("That's IT!!. I'm GOING!!!") See how 'going' is a falling tone? Now say the same phrase, and apply a rising tone to 'going'. All of a sudden sounds like a question, and sounds very weird, doesn't it? Look at someone and say 'going to the store'. Say store with a falling tone, and the other person would think you are telling them you're leaving (as in a statement). Say it with a rising tone, and they will think you are asking them a question. Can't/isn't necessary to do that in speaking Thai, and in fact, by doing do, may make you unintelligible, and is the first thing you need to start working on. We naturally often place a rising tone on the last word in a question sentence, so really need to be careful to not do this. If you know you are saying the correct words in the right order, but are not being understood, then say over again, with no high, low, rising, or falling tones at all, and I bet you will, all of a sudden, be understood.

 

 

[Guest]

Excellent advice regarding the use or nonuse thereof of emotional tones. I have often wondered how peoples speaking a tonal language could shout or argue without ruining the tone pattern. Guess that is one I will never pickup.

 

"It is said the Chinese (or perhaps Thai) is not a spoken language. It is whispered, cursed, shouted or yelled, but never spoken!"

[Guest]

Spelling rice as "Khao" may be useful to a Thai/advanced person because it encodes the thai characters used for the consonant (Kh) and vowel (ao), but just relevant is that for a newbie? English has a word with that sound already (Cow), so why not use it? Show a bunch of newbies Khao and have fun listening to all the ways they pronounce it completely wrong. If the topic was Thai for intermediates or persons who intend to spend huge hours studying to be well past a newbie, I would of course think differently. There are plenty of resources for these type people already, but there really seems a void in the market for simple thai for dummies approach. Spelling things in a way that maps words to their spoken sounds instead of to their thai characters I would think would provide a better chance of them being understood together with reducing the time to learn. Again, THINK NEWBIE. Someone who may come to the country on little notice and not stay too long.

 

Also, the other thing missing from the post is how to designate long vs short.

 

[markle]

The problem with writiung 'cow' is that no two native speakers (Brit, US, Aust, NZ etc) pronounce it the same way and all of them are wrong. 'Cow' is a good approximation but it is no substitute. Therefore you need a system that is somewhat neutral. Too unfamiliar you say? Well what happens when the 'newbies' progress to better levels? - they will have to unlearn everything they already understand and learn a new system. Better off getting them to use the system from the get go.

 

HT

There are three parts to pronunciation. pronunciation (the sound of the word), stress & intonation.

In Thai the sound of the words are quite precise whereas in English there is a fair bit of latitude given to different accents.

Stress in English is quite varied both between words and between sylablles e.g. What are you going to do? comes out more like Wht'reyagonna'do? or computer is pronounced cmPUT'r. In Thai the stress is spread out more and is more even. ever notice how Thai say com-put-er, saying every sylablle clearly.

Finally (as has been noted) intonation has a different use. In English it adds nuance to the meaning of a word, but in Thai it can change the whole meaning of the word.

I would hesitate to say that emotion doesn't affect the pronunciation of words in Thai. It usually affects a whole phrase rather than parts of the phrase

[Guest]

Here is rough draft on sentence structure------

 

SENTENCE STRUCTURE

 

Word order in Thai is very important. For instance, 'dai' said before a verb indicates past-tense, but 'dai' said immediately after a verb, means 'can'. While much of Thai has the same sentence structure as English (subject-verb-object), but it is also common to see the object placed first, for emphasis. In English we would say, "Where is the hotel?". In Thai, you place 'yuu tii nai' (place where?) at the end of sentence, so this question in Thai would be "Rong raam, yuu tii nai" (hotel, this place is where?). As a newbie, it just comes down to memorization for the key phrases you'll need to get by on, which are explained in the different specific 'Quick Lesson' topics.

 

Should note here that 'mai' is a very important word in Thai. Placed at the end of a sentence, it turns a statement into a question. "We go to store" is a statement, telling listener that both of you are going to the store now. You can turn it into a question by saying "We go to store, mai". You would then be asking listener if he/she wanted both of you to go to the store now. So if someone is speaking to you, and the last thing you hear is 'mai', you then know that you are being asked a question. Instead of just 'mai', you may here 'chai mai' (isn't it? / aren't you?), or 'reu mai' (or not?). The other very important aspect of 'mai', is that when used before a word, it means 'not'. "I want this", can be turned into "I don"t want this" by saying "I 'mai' want this" (I not want this)./// "We go". "We 'mai' go", means "we not go"./// "I have". "I 'mai' have", means, "I not have. /// "I take". "I 'mai' take" means, "I not take"..get the idea? So all you have to do is memorize some key two-three word phrases like I want, Let's go, I like, I feel, This is, etc., and by inserting 'mai' in there, you'll be able to also say, I don't want, Let's not go, I don't like, I don't feel, This is not.....etc.

 

Khun sabai dee, mai? = you feeling well? = (khun) 'you' (sabai dee) 'feeling well' (mai) '?'

 

Mai sabai dee = not feeling well = (mai) 'not' (sabai dee) 'feeling well'.

 

[Guest]

Hi Escape Rabbit,

 

I understand exactly what you are saying, and agree. I've already started putting in "SL" (sounds like) in the word list in my original first post (when I edit it it, it does not move to the top of the list in posting order, but I have done some work there). In the 'concept' thread (sentence structure, tones, vocabulary list) I did not want to include a bunch of Thai words that newbie won't understand. This is why I wrote in English. "I want to go to store" // I mai want to go to store. Writing "Phom yaak (ja) bai raan" is non-productive. Meaningless to newbie. They need to understand the 'concept' of throwing 'mai' before a word, to negate it, rather than throwing a lot of Thai words their way. That's my thought, anyway. The particulars, and deeper discussions can be discussed it 'topic specific' Quick Lessons, like "At the Hotel", etc.

 

BTW...I threw 'Khao' in there, just to start getting their feet wet, and used as a demonstration, to see what they are up against, concerning tones.

 

A difficult project this. I'm trying to address two groups, really. One is the guy who has 7 hours on the plane, and when it lands at BKK, to be able to at least be able to communicate with the cab driver where he needs to go (hey...I've been there...taxi driver who didn't know where Nana Hotel was. AND HE PICKED ME UP AT CLINTON PLAZA!). I'm not kidding.

 

The other group?....It would be nice to offer words like 'zoo', 'park', etc., for those wanting a little more, after they have learned the basic, "I want to go........".

 

HT

 

 

[Guest]

Hi Markle,

 

I know...I know. You can say 'hello' 20 different ways, but will always be understood as 'hello', and nothing more, in English

 

But, please understand the goal here. It is not to produce a person well versed in the art of speaking/understanding the nuances of the Thai language. Honestly....it's for punters to be able to tell their 'fresh-off-the-farm B/G that she is pretty, is she hungry?, and how much does she charge for L/T? ::

 

I really wish that I had access to just the basic jist of the language my first few trips. I wouldn't be going to this trouble if were out there already. This is simply a project to fill a need, that from what I know, does not exist.

 

"mai khao jai" = "my cow jy" (jy, as in 'lie', but with a 'j'....rymes with 'Hi')"

 

I know that is like hearing chalk on a 50 year old, dried out, chalk board for you (and anyone else well versed in the difficulties of mastering the nuances), but tell me how else to go about this?

 

Let me put it this way. If I put a gun to your head, and said you had 5 days to make an individual understand what they are going to hear when they get to LOS, and be able to communicate on an even gutteral level, how would you go about it? ::

 

HT

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

>>>>>In Thai the sound of the words are quite precise whereas in English there is a fair bit of latitude given to different accents.

Stress in English is quite varied both between words and between sylablles e.g. What are you going to do? comes out more like Wht'reyagonna'do? or computer is pronounced cmPUT'r. In Thai the stress is spread out more and is more even. ever notice how Thai say com-put-er, saying every sylablle clearly.<<<<<

 

What a great Lesson!! Thanks again, Markle. This one needs to be cut-and pasted, and put on my wall. Clears up some some general questions I've had.

 

HT

 

[Guest]

PERSONAL PRONOUNS:

 

I (for male) = phom® - (sounds like 'poem')

I (for female) = chun® - (sounds like '?'). More formal is 'dii chun', But you are not likely to hear that, except on t.v. while there.

 

You = khun - (Sounds like 'coon') - (notice no tone) /// You may also hear 'thoe' (sounds like 'ter' when spoken). Used between intimates sometimes, so may hear your girlfriend referring to you with this word.

 

We/us = Rao -(sounds like 'now', but with a 'r') - (notice no tone) Note that many Thai's replace R's with L's, so this word may be spoken to you as 'lao', which is another word in Thai, so watch out for this. You can say properly though (with 'r'), and they will understand you.

 

He/him/she/her/they/them = Khao® - (sounds like 'cow') - (note rising tone) /// Thai's don't use plurals, and verbs don't change according to tense, so context will tell listener who (them, he, she) you are referring to. "khao® gin(l) kai(l)- (lit. '(she/they/him) eat chicken'), can mean (she/they/him) eats; ate; has eaten; or, will eat chicken. To be more precise, then time marker words would be included, if not obvious when eating had occurred. But that's getting too complicated for here, so just remember that 'khao' refers to anyone other than you, and person your talking to. And it doesn't matter how many other people, or if male or female. "That girl is very(maak) beautiful(suay)" = "Khao suay maak" = (lit.)"Her beautiful very much".

 

It = Man - (sounds as it looks) - (no tone) You use this when referring to inanimate objects and animals. Note: Referring to someone (person) as 'man', means you are referring to them as an animal, or an 'it', which is very rude in Thai.

 

Example: "Phom® yaak(l) khao® ja(l) bai Pattaya gup(l) rao". (lit. "I want her (to)go Pattaya with us").

 

Note: Once it is established who is being spoken about, the phom, khun, and rao tags can be left out, after a few sentences, which Thai's will often do. If only girlfriend and you in room, you only need to say "hew mai" (hungry ? ). There is no need to say "Are you hungry?". It will be obvious you are addressing her.

 

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"I WANT.......?.

 

Thai's have several ways of expressing this, depending on situation. 'Khor®' and 'Ao' will be the two words you will want to memorize first, for just a short visit. While 'ao' means 'want', 'mai(f) ao' means 'not want'. This is what you will tell vendors, touts, etc., when you are not interested in whatever it is, they are trying to sell/give you. Add the polite khrap ending, and "Mai(f) ao khrap(h)" will be a phrase you will be speaking constantly, while there.. "Mai ao Khrap" (I not want).

 

I want = 'ao' - (sounds like 'now', minus the 'n')

 

"I would like to have....." = 'khor®'. - (sounds like a cross between 'car' and 'core') More polite than 'ao', as it is more like requesting something, than demanding it. Should use when ordering in a bar, or restaurant.

 

I need... = 'tong(f)-karn' - (sounds like it looks). This means you really need' something, as opposed to just wanting something. Cut yourself, and you would 'need' a band-aid, as opposed to just desiring one. Can also be used as a more polite form of 'ao'. You shouldn't need to use this on a short visit, but may hear it often.

 

I desire..... = 'yaak(l)' - (sounds like 'baack', but with 'y' sound). More polite than 'ao', and is used frequently. You don't 'need' to know this word, for a short visit, but you may hear often. You might also hear "yaak(l) dai(f)". The 'dai' is added after 'yaak' to denote that you desire, a thing. "Yaak dai" = to desire (something). If you desired it to rain tomorrow, you would not use the 'dai' tag.

 

(I want) you out of here = (Phom® ao) you out of here.

 

(I'd like a) beer = (Khor®) beer.

 

(I need) a fire extinguisher = (Phom® tong(f)-karn) a fire extinguisher.

 

(I desire) to buy those shoes one day. = (Phom® yaak(l) dai(f)) buy those shoes one day.

 

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TO HAVE & POSSESS:

 

Mii (sounds like mee) = 'to have'. "Phom® mee baht(l)" = I have baht (money). Placing 'mai'(f) in front of 'mii', = 'mai mee'= 'not have'. So, "phom® mai(f) mee baht(l)" = "I not have baht"

 

You can also use these two words (mii & mai) to ask, "Do you have?". In this case, place 'mii' at the beginning, and 'mai' at the end. "Mii Jack Daniel's mai" = "have Jack Daniel's?" (remember,placing 'mai' at the end of a sentence turns it into a question). So, with these two words you can say you have something, you don't have something, or ask if someone else has something.

 

Possession is indicated by the word 'Khawng'® - (sounds like 'kong'). It roughly translates to 'belong to'. 'My rice' = Khao(f) khawng® phom® = (lit. 'rice belong me'). Or, "Does this belong to you?" = "Nii(f) khawng® khun mai(f)" = (lit. this belong you ?)

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THIS & THAT & WHAT

 

This = Nii(f) - (sounds like knee).

 

That = Nan(f) - (rhymes with John)

 

What = A-rai - (sounds like 'ah-rye') - ('r' is often dropped, and replaced with 'L', making it 'a-lai'). You'll hear this word a lot. If someone doesn't understand you, you will hear "a-rai na?". They are asking you "Huh, what are you saying ?" (what?) - (the 'na' on the end is just a marker to indicate additional surprise). The other context is in asking 'what is this?', 'what is that?', 'what are you doing?', etc. If you run into something in front of you, and want to know what it is, you would say "Nii a-rai" (lit. "this what?"). If you want to know what something is in the distance, you would say, "Nan a-rai" (lit. that what?). In Thai, just remember to name the object, and then ask what it is, using the 'a-rai' tag after. "Your sister's name, 'a-rai' " = 'what is your sisters name?'

 

 

 

 

[markle]

HT

Can I have the audacity to make some suggestions? (I mean lets face it I couldn't be arsed doing it myself)

 

Your aiming it at 'newbies' right?

Well you might want to cut back on the explanation and make it a bit simpler to follow. Maybe stick to straight out examples. Maybe you could crack open a phrase book that had a format you found easy to follow and use that as a basis, substituting the language points you want to get across.

 

Keep it up!