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meaning of farang


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Well, I went to the restaurant tonight to pick up my wife and had a chance to speak with one of the Mum Luang's kids.

For what it's worth he got his undergrad at Thamasat in Asian history with an emphasis on Thai history.

I asked him about the origins of Farang and the Frank - Arab connection.

He indicated that although the roots of France, francais, and franc are more than likely tied to the original frank, the Thai word farang is definitely tied to farang-sayt.

He said he remembered a professor lecturing on the use of the word gaining popularity during the emissaries from the court of Louis IV. Although there had been French visitors well prior to the court visit, it wasn't until the visits in Lopburi and Ayuthaya that the term was popularly used to mean Westerners in general.

He also indicated that Farang-sayt is absolutely a Thai version of Francais.

Given this guy's intellect and backround, I tend to believe he knows what he's talking about.

[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Brink15 ]

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quote:

Originally posted by elef:

Hi,

Louis IV - 936-954 - I don't believe that.
laugh.gif" border="0
But Louis XIV (le Roi Soleil) 1643-1715.

elef
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Definitively Lous XIV, I quote http://www.geocities.com/rajchasadudee/narai.html

As for foreign relations, King Narai became the most renowned Thai monarch since he adopted a friendly policy towards foreigners, especially the Europeans. Ayutthaya was a metropolis where peoples from many lands congregated, including the Dutch, the British, the French, the Portugese and the Arab. The French, who first arrived in 1662, sent missionaries and merchants to the capital. During the 1680's, splendid embassies were exchanged between King Narai and King Louis XIV. Later on, the conflict broke out when the French tried to convert King Narai to Christianity and also attempted to gain a foothold in the Thai kingdom by sending troops to garrison Bangkok and Mergui in 1687. However, an anti-French official seized power in 1688, drove out the French garrisons, and executed King Narai's Greek favorite Constantine Faulcon, who had been championing the French cause. After 1688, Ayutthaya had less contact with western nations.

To end this topic: I don't care wether "farang" comes from "frank" or "francais"

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Originally posted by Brink15:

"... the Thai word farang is definitely tied to farang-sayt."

As is often the case, there are conflicting theories. Anyhow, the word "farang-seyt" seems to have set a wrong precedent:

Many Thais call Portugal "Potugeyt". This is obviously their version of "Portuguese", and so they confuse noun and adjective.

To come back to the farang issue:

The Thai word "angkrit" for "English" comes from Urdu "angrez", which in turn is derived from Persian "inglis".

This is the same geographical and linguistic route that - in my opinion - the word "farang" has taken; and this might indicate a pattern and contradict the "farang-seyt" theory.

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Sorry guys, I meant Louis XIV, I left off the X. Need to type slower and more carefully.

DB,

If I remember correctly Spain finally booted out the Moors under the reign of Queen Isabella I, the same of Columbus fame.

I believe the last Moorish stronghold was in Toledo.

This would have been mid-to-late 1400s.

I don't know how they truly came up with farang as I wasn't there when it was first said. (After all the girls at Eden tell me I'm still "young boy" laugh.gif" border="0 )

Pab, the guy at the restaurant, seemed very sure of the francais (forgive my lack of proper accents as I can't be bothered to find out where they are) and farang-seyt (changed per SBs's correction) and farang.

As long as they just don't call me "Y hawh" everythings cool.

I'm going to have to plan ahead for my return trip next year. I want to buy a beer (or coke) for DB and SB (the B brothers). I think it would be facinating to pick both of your brains.

Anyway, that's my take.

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Originally posted by Brink15:

"I'm going to have to plan ahead for my return trip next year. I want to buy a beer (or coke) for DB and SB (the B brothers). I think it would be facinating to pick both of your brains."

Yeah, let me know when you're coming. I do travel a bit around the area, but if in Bangkok I'll take up the offer. And then we'll ogle naked go-go dancers and discuss the etymology of certain private parts etc. "And by the way did you know that there are 300 words for 'prostitute' in Sanskrit ...?" "Scum, shut up and look at that one with the shaved ...".

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several years back there was a discussion in the bangkok post, and it came out that 'farang' was from the persian 'feringi', meaning 'white faced barbarian'. just like the chinese 'gwai lo', and the japanese 'gai jin'. all cultures consider themselves to be the center of creation, and have derogatory words for those who are different.

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Originally posted by notroll:

"... it came out that 'farang' was from the persian 'feringi', meaning 'white faced barbarian'."

While I do support the Persian origin version, I think that the interpretation "white-faced barbarian" is a later, and an artificially constructed one. Have you seen Iranians? They are often as white as Western Europeans!

Iran (another name for "Arya") is of course one of the heartlands of Indo-Aryan culture. Now, I'll be straying completely off-subject here, but I'll give you some (possibly interesting) information how long-winded and surprising the Aryan connections can be:

In Tamil Nadu in Southern India, there lives a small cattle-rearing tribe called the Todas. In all likelihood the hail from ancient Persia. They are unusually tall and fair-skinned compared with their South Indian, Dravidian neighbours. The name Toda translates as "the people".

Now, here comes the surprise: The word "Deutsch", as the Germans call themselves, is derived from "thioda", which means just that - "the people"! So you have connection all the way between Western Europe, Persia and Dravidian-dominated South India.

Sorry for straying so far, but the mention of Persia/Iran just set off a few uncontrollable brain-waves ...

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quote:

Originally posted by Scum_Baggio:

Originally posted by hall:

'I asked my language teacher (a Chula trained linguist) about this. Her reply and I quote " uneducated thai too stupid/lazy to pronounce 'r' correctly ..."'

True indeed. It's the same with "khrap" which is a bit awkward to pronounce for Thais, so they drop the r and it becomes "khap".

(I believe an earlier pronounciation is "kharap" and I've heard one or the other super-traditionalist pronounce it that way.)

To hall and his Thai teacher:

Even educated Thais are too lazy to pronounce 'r' correctly as well. I think the only people who pronounce Thai correctly are the news readers on TV.

To SB:

The original word of "Khrap" is "Kor Rap(rub?)". Then it was shortened to "kharap" as you stated. And then only "Khrap"

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