Chanchao Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 quote: Originally posted by hall: Hi Teach. The word is definately 'farang'. Spelt ฟรั่ง in thai script ฝรั่ง, not ฟรั่ง :-) Though up here in the North we use บะก้วย, which also nicely solves the r vs. l dilemma. Cheers, Chanchao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanchao Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 quote: Originally posted by hall: I asked my language teacher (a Chula trained linguist) about this. Her reply and I quote " uneducated thai too stupid/lazy to pronounce 'r' correctly That's stuck up arrogant Bangkokian elitist crap! :-) Guess what, the biggest population group in Thailand are Lao (Isarn) speaking people. Add the Northern Thai people to this and you have a majority of Thais who don't *HAVE* an 'R' sound in their native tongue. Check the Lao alphabet (as used in the Lao PDR) it does not have an R (ร . But I guess in your teachers view these people are all uneducated.. Cheers, Chanchao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Originally posted by Chanchao:" ... here in the North we use บะก้วย, which also nicely solves the r ... dilemma." In Phuket farangs are called "pang" (the a pronounced just as in farang), which also circumvents the issue. In the rest of Southern Thailand it's of course "'rang", leaving out the first syllable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Originally posted by db_sez_aloha: "I wonder how that ('pang') happened. Did they take it right from Arabic or did it come through Thai?" I don't know if anyone ever investigated this. Let's speculate a bit. As "parangi" is just another variant (the Tamil version) of Persian "farangi", one can see how "pang" could have come about: parangi > pangi > pang. The a is short. Interestingly, after the first Tamils were brought over to Malaysia in the late 19th and early 20th century by the British, some Tamils migrated to Phuket. There's still a tiny Tamil minority there (around 100+ persons), and they even have their own small temple where they celebrate Hindu festivals etc. There COULD be be connection, right? Of course, South Indian merchants reached Southern Thailand at least as early as the 2nd/3rd century AD, but by that time the term farangi/parangi hadn't been coined yet. But then, the "pang" variant could also have sprung up independently from any Tamil influence - say from Southern Thai "'rang" which some folks may have found awkward to prounouce. With nothing but these two theories for choice, I'd somehow favour the first. [ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Chanchao: ฝรั่ง, not ฟรั่ง :-) Though up here in the North we use บะก้วย, which also nicely solves the r vs. l dilemma. Cheers, Chanchao Hi Chanchao, Is บะก้วย KHAM MEUANG? Does it mean ฝรั่ง ? Boo [ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Boo Radley ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thalenoi Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Sukhumvit: Thalenoi, I know that you may have quoted a web expert but I think that the possibility of Farang being derived from Francais is not so implausible. Quite often Thais will insert a vowel between consonants to make a word easier to say, eg sprite becomes saparite. It's not such a massive leap of faith for francais to become farancais to become faranca to become farang etc. But what do I know? That's exactly the misconception. The word "frank" is older tha the word "francais" and came eastwards to the arabs due to the crusadors. The notion "Frank" identifying warriors from the west in general (all catholic countries participating in the crusades) Also note the French word for someone who speaks french is "francophile" where you find the first letters of "franc" same as" frank" I quote: "For the Muslim Arabs of the medieval Holy Land, it was bad enough to have those barbarous Franks descend upon them, slaughtering indiscriminately in the name of God." The Western and Muslim stereotypes are also remarkably old. When the First Crusade descended upon the Holy Land in 1098, the first great shock for the Arabs -- among the most sophisticated and cosmopolitan people in the world -- must have been the sudden and incomprehensible appearance of a hundred thousand red-bearded fanatics, laying about them like Conan the Barbarian, and all in the name of God. But once the crusaders settled in for a prolonged stay, the second great shock for the Arabs was the relations between the sexes that prevailed among the Westerners, or "Franks." (Franji is still the Arabic word for Westerners in general.) Contemporary Arab historians, amid their accounts of battles, massacres, treachery, and general crudity, had a few revealing things to say about "Frankish" mores -- or at least their own impressions of Frankish mores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 Originally posted by Chanchao:"That's stuck up arrogant Bangkokian elitist crap! :-) Guess what, the biggest population group in Thailand are Lao (Isarn) speaking people. Add the Northern Thai people to this and you have a majority of Thais who don't *HAVE* an 'R' sound in their native tongue." Every language sets its own standards, as to what is considered "correct" usage or pronounciation. It's a long historical and linguistic development. The Thai standard happens to be set in Central Thailand, or more precisely Suphanburi, whose inhabitants are supposed to speak the best, or most "pure" Thai. The number of speakers of a certain dialect is not necessarily a criterion. In India, I have hardly ever heard anybody speak 100% correct Hindi, but still it's the country's national language (along with English). If suddenly half of Great Britain started dropping the h's, as the Cockney speakers do, would that necessitate English grammar books to be re-written? If suddenly the Southern Thai speakers increased in numbers to outnumber all other Thais, would that mean that "Pak Tai" would have to be regarded as standard Thai? Every language has its rules and often they don't even make much sense (the pronounciation of English being a prime example); and in every country those people who break the rules will be regarded as uneducated or dumb. It's just a fact of life - linguistic Darwinism if you will. [ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 Originally posted by db_sez_aloha:"If anyone tires of this thread, you might consider a holiday to Batu Ferenggi, ... ... or read up on the exploits of a certain "thug" nicknamed Feringhi. The "thugs" (more properly thags) were followers of goddess Bhawani/Kali, and used to ritually kill travellers in India. The killing was done bt throttling with a handkerchief and was to appease the goddess; some of the booty was donated to her main temple in Mirzapur, Uttar Pradesh. The British stamped out the cult of "thagi" in the early 19th century. The success could be mainly ascribed to Major-General W.H. Sleeman, who left a fascinating account of the "thugs" and one of their most feared leaders, Feringhi. The book is called "Rambles and Recollection of an Indian Official" (first publ. 1893) and is available in various reprints (for example by Asian Educational Services, New Delhi). The word "thag" of course is the root of the English word thug, as everybody would have guessed by now. [ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 I don't know beans when the bag's open, so I won't post anything on this topic. The old board has been fried, so that's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hall Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 Chanchao, Many thanks for your correction. I'd like to claim a typographical error but given the relative positions of 'ฟ ' and 'ฝ' on the thai keyboard I don't think I can use that as an excuse!!!! Regarding my ajaan's comments I very much agree with you but I'm not about to call her an "arrogant,elitist Bangkokian" -- she knows where I live!!! Cheers Hall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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