A bargirl's standing in the village

[mongatu]

pattaya127 said:

. . . I maintain people are not too judgemental, and not a great stigma is attached to that way of making money, in poorer settings. I tend to think they are affected more personally, within themselves, by the profession than socially.

This corresponds to my experience, albeit not back in the village, but in just talking with some relatively gtg's (or nbg's) about what they think of the bg's all around them (this was in Pattaya). I expected them to express some sort of condemnation concerning the whole subject or the bg's, but there was none, although most of these specific gtg's I am thinking of would not ever "sell body" themselves. Their attitude (at least as expressed to me) towards the bg's was more or less, they do what they have to and they are not bad people for doing it.

[Guest lazyphil]

<<although most of these specific gtg's I am thinking of would not ever "sell body" themselves. Their attitude (at least as expressed to me) towards the bg's was more or less, they do what they have to and they are not bad people for doing it>>

 

 

This subject amuses me endlessly because ime my mrs keeps in touch with several of her old work mates from the Japanese company (who still work there) she worked for before her stint in Patong--we will no doubt meet a few on our soon to be up coming return trip. I sound like a broken record I know but she/we have many nbg friends here too who seem to overlook her past. Lots of myths regarding bgs not mixing outside the flock so to speak. I think Thais are far more pragmatic than a good few posters here--again ime.

[Guest]

MaiLuk said:

What is the standing of a bar girl back in her village? Put another way, what do the thais in the village think about the girl who goes off to be a bar girl?

 

It depends which Village you are talking about. There are some Villages where the majority of girls when they reach a certain age supply a particular bar or group of Massage Parlors. In these villages most of the familys expect the offspring to go off and carry on the tradition. From what I've seen of these places the only gossiping that goes on is about familys that don't send their kids into the trade.

 

There is obviously the Famous "Swiss Village" or Ban Jan, this place is totally off the scale. The Pressure on Girls to carry on the Switzerland trade here is unbelievable. To see the crap that girls who don't want to go are put through, both through family and neighbours, would make you think leveling this place would be the best solution. Obviously here as in the first case the only gossiping is about girls that don't go.

 

Then there are the thousands of villages where the majority of girls decide for themselves to go. There are plenty of familys in these places that try all in their means to dissuade their daughters from getting into the scene. But the girls ignore everybody and go and strike out on their own. I think people who have this image of Village parents being mostly piss heads. Parents who are delighted when their daughters disappear into the trade. They would be surprised by the amount of heartbroken Mums, Dads and deserted husbands left upcountry.

 

Anyway I guess my point is that yes there is plenty of gossip, but what sort of gossip depends on the whole culture and history of the particular village.

[ThaiHome]

"Anyway I guess my point is that yes there is plenty of gossip, but what sort of gossip depends on the whole culture and history of the particular village. "

 

In my wife's village outside Sa Kaeo, there seems to be more "well-off families" benefiting from their children working overseas (Taiwan, Israel, etc) or in Rayong and Chachoengsao then from daughters going into the scene. If you go to village functions at the school or Wat, you can pretty easily spot the BG's on a visit, and at least in my experience with this one village, there just isn't that many. There are a few families with daughters living overseas with farang husbands, but there doesn't seem to be much benefit derived from that in village.

All in all, the impact of the farang sex business on this area appears to be almost nil.

TH

[Guest]

THAIHOME said:

All in all, the impact of the farang sex business on this area appears to be almost nil.

TH

 

That sounds the same as my first wifes place. Apparently it's changed a bit over the years but girls in the scene was the exception rather than the norm, and it certainly wasn't encouraged.

[Central Scrutinizer]

P127,

 

"Which, IMO, or intuition, is no great shame or finger-poiting material from kins or neighbours,"

 

I think your "intuition" is a bit skewed P127 by what you percieve. Thais don't show, especially to a farang, their feelings outwardly, in public, if they can at all avoid doing so. You take this to show there is little "shame and fingerpointing" when a lady is known or suspected of being a prostitute. Sorry to say, but this isn't true. Look, this doesn't mean to say that people are deliberately cruel or mean to the woman they know or suspect. The rules of public decorum here wouldn't allow such behaviour, but, behind the scenes some resent the way she earned her money, they resent those they feel are their "inferiors" getting ahead of them in the chain of social structure and economic standing in the village by recieving money from their prostitute daughters. They resent the cash flashed, the new and grand homes built for the family by the money earned this way. The automobiles and pick-up trucks, the gold worn, the silk shirts and Levi Jeans (not copies), the flaunting of the excess, the lauding over others the luxury goods bought ---- the washing machines, the new televisions and stereos, the nice furniture, the new rice tractor, the screened windows, the glass doors and windows, the French perfumes and farang made cosmetics, the HUGE sin sots when the daughter who was hooking marries her farang lover of choice. Do you seriously think the ones who don't let their daughters (or sons even, who go to work the boy bars of BKK and Pattaya to send the money home) go to the big cities and do this kind of work to boost the family's income aren't resented and despised for doing so? I beg to differ. What you are seeing and referring to is an artiface of social behaviour brought about by their religion and their desire to save face in public. Thier seemingly outward indifference is for public show only.

 

"as village folks are rather "live and let live" and pragmatic (if "it" works out for all concerned: no complaint), and truly any sense of shame or guilt about the deed to get money is voided by the positive reason behind it."

 

Bullshit! ::

 

"We farangs can talk all night about the sorry aspects, but I still have to meet one girl who feels sorry doing what must be done to get thru the next day, and possibly longer."

 

Well, I believe then you need to do a much larger sampling of the girls on this subject. I've met more than a few who hated doing the work, who resented doing so to help out their family, who thought no one loved them for themselves, but only loved the baht they sent home, and a few who actually hated their parents for it. I've met a few who said they wished they never got into the scene. Who wished they just had stayed in the village, married a local guy, and picked rice for a living. You see these ones every day in the gogo bars of Bangkok and Pattaya. They are the ones who need to get damned near drunk to go on stage naked, or take some drug or another to help them through the day/night of dancing nude in front of foreign strangers, and then sleep with them for money. THEY are the casualties that don't last long in the scene. (Maybe this is why you haven't run across one yet in your experiences. They come and go quickly in the scene. They aren't strong enough to endure the assault on thier psyche for long.) Ending up suicides, drug addict overdoses, alcoholic street beggers, street people, mental hospital patients, AIDS victims, etc. The weak ones who can't get past it all and just go for the gold, the cash, and the sanuk. They aren't wired that way. They are there my friend. Look a bit deeper and harder. You'll find plenty of them.

 

"To sum up,a BG who brings a little baht home is better viewed that the no-BG who does not or can't help back home."

 

Yes, viewed better by those who think she is just meat for the market to bring in money for them and thier luxuries and gambling and drinking habits. Money to make merit by giving it to the local Wat as if they were big shots, an oblation of tainted money to give them big fucking face in the village, to blow by giving large tambon money and parties for the dead grandparents and esteemed aunts and uncles, money for a new pick-up truck and gold watches and gold Dupont pens. Not the sort of parents and people I'd want to be "viewed better" by. But then the ladies have been conditioned from birth to believe these scumbag parents are due this allegiance and obedience, when nothing could be further from the truth. They are used by the callous and uncaring, for nothing more than immediate gain and a ring from the carousel of greed of consumerism. Do you seriously think those parents who do this are looked up to in the village, by those parents who actually love their children and would never let them do this work? Do you think they are not reviled for the way they've abused their childrens trust? They are. It's just not put on public display as it would be in the west. Why? The Buddhist religion. Those that believe, believe that in a future reincarnation these sort will get their comeuppance. Go to the temple a ways outside of Pattaya on the mountain with all the monkies which the foreign tourists feed, (wish I could remember the name of it now. I'll find out if you'd like to see this place.) where there are Buddha statues from around the world on display. See there the painted concrete statues of the tortures from Buddhist hell of the sins they believe are punishable in their hell.

 

"I suspect it's a big difference from the country folks in France or US farmland."

 

Yes, it is. Not to say it is better, just different. But for me, as a parent myself, I fail to see how these parents can take this money and prosper, knowing from where it comes, and what their children have to do to earn it. And the damage it does to so many of their daughters and sons. And what kills me is that most of these people weren't so bad off to begin with. None I've seen are starving, none without shelter and clothing. They just want the consumer goods mostly they see on TV and the soap operas of the rich and famous, or more rice land, not to feed themselves, but to sell the rice to make money, so same same difference I feel. Some of the money is used to a good end, education for other kids in the family, or a business opportunity which helps the whole of the family, but at what price to the daughter/son who does the dirty job. In the west it is the mother and father who will kill themselves working long hours and many jobs to advance the family's fortunes and education. (And very few I'd be willing to bet who would even consider having their children prostitute themselves to advance the family fortunes and make things easier on the old man and mother.) Here it seems once the kids are deemed old enough it is their job to do this. (In the poorer families in the farming communities, not the Thai/Chinese ruling elite.) In any way they can, for good old Mom and Dad, to the detriment of the kid's education, health, physical and mental, and future happiness. It's a twisted and skewed social logic that too many abuse and use to further themselves, and the "favorite" children of the family. (I'd be willing to bet it isn't the favored kids who end up doing this type of work for the family's betterment, but the troubled kids, the anti-authority kids, the seen as promiscuous girls, the ones who talk back, or aren't seen as smart enough to hold the family reigns and fortune in the future. The rebellious ones, the lazy ones, the smart mouthed ones. The ones actually needing some extra parenting and help.)

 

Believe it P127. There is a stigma attached there. It's just not "in your face". Especially in a farangs face to easily see it.

 

Cent

[Central Scrutinizer]

P127,

 

One question for you P127, if you don't mind. Have you ever spent any amount of time living in a rural Thai village? More than a couple of weeks? You might want to do so one day. It's quite an experience, and lends to one's knowledge of the subject other than "intuition". You'll get to see a lot more deeply into how the ladies one meets in the bars have to live, and to what thier money sent home is used for, and not used for, and how they are percieved "outside" thier family and friends circle.

 

Try it some time, rather than spending your time in BKK or Pattaya. It's educational. :: A good way to get to see behind the famous Thai smiles, which hide so much. And actually can be a lot of fun at times too! ::

 

Cent

[Central Scrutinizer]

BKKbound04,

 

Sorry. For some reason I attributed your quote to Jap12. And yes, I agree. Village life needs to be seen and experienced to be believed! TIT covers so many things don't it?

 

Cent

[pattaya127]

well, i used intuition because i think it would rather be immodest to say i know for sure, exactly because i have not lived years in a issan village.

 

BTW, I do rarely stay in BKK, and i also most likely move around the region a bit more than most here. You are probably the only one here to claim I should stay more in Issan.

 

But yes, my life is still in SF, and my trips to Thailand are mostly spend traveling, and not dtaying for months in the same issan village. Maybe someday....

 

I am not sure about how many women i should gather data from, it' not really my idea about traveling, though i met quite a few.

 

I am just giving my thoughts as experienced on the topic and don't claim someone else's thought are wrong for being different.

 

I am well aware of the pitfalls of being a prostitute and the greed there is for some families. Still, I do not think the topic was quite about that. More about public reactions and showing disapproval or rejection because the girl would be a prostitute foremost, more than a village or family kin.

 

As for the reaction to the monies coming from the girls, Here, yes, i used my Pattaya experience to know that many girls do/did not send that much home to really provoke great greed or envy from the neighbours.

 

I also think that anyone flaunting or simply showing affluence in the village can provoke envy or jealousy from others, a negative but natural feeling, and it does not matter where that money comes from, a shop owner, a married thai expatriated or a prostitute.

 

As my GF says: if i have money, i have many friends.... Well, one does not need to be a prostitute to realize and live that.

Within her own family, we know the ones who are expecting her to be rich on account of her farang BF, and the ones who never make demands on her, fortunately these are a huge majority.

 

My experience of village life is not so much that neighbours opinions count, as the family networks are very tight-knitted and neighbours who participate in the family life are like family too. The very fact of that type of network, where all depends on all, and harmony is important within, tends to make anyone else an outsider whose opinions are not as paramount as close family. Still, My GF has told me that her daughter has never been insulted or called names in the school village for Mom having a farang BF, and living in Pattaya.

 

About how her own Mom reacted to learning how she made money, this has indeed very little to do with what a parent would react in the west to learning this. Even as she may worry about her daughter, there was no deep shame thrown on the family and no wailing or shouting.

 

I remember what one Issan teacher told me about poor Issan people when we talked about acceptance and dignity in their life. Her claimed that when you are so poor and tomorrow is less than certain, dignity is a luxury ill-afforded, and that people have to make do, one way or another. Maybe he should check his data too, i dunno.

 

So, in short, i never said that prostitution is not something that they wish they could avoid, all my positions on this subject come out, once in a while ("shame on thailand for selling its daughters" in a nutshell), but that, if i dare repeating, the social stigma is very benign back in the village (people gossiping behind their back is altogether a different thing), and that they are rarely rejected or morally, publicly stoned for "being a whore".

 

And yes, i acknowledged more personal damage to oneself, but here again, i have always have been impressed by so many people i met in South east Asia, for not over-complaining or self-commiserating about their condition, which we westerners could find harrowing if put in their position.

 

Which is far from ignoring that conflicts erupt within thenselves, and also in the family at times, but all in all, it is a private nor a public matter, which i understand the topic was about.

 

Incidentally, I am impressed your own data seems about girls who can buy all this stuff you mention. I again have not experienced that much ostentation or flaunting or wealth in the women I have known, personally or thru my GFs. Only talking from my experience, but allow me the right to say it's as real as anyone else's.

[thalenoi]

What about the other way round?

 

I paid two visits to the gf's village in two years time (they saw me and know me) and I spend one month in farangland every 6 months alone. The gf then goes home to visit her parents for two weeks.

 

Now she gets upset because the village rumours she works bar and she spents some holiday time at home .