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A bargirl's standing in the village


MaiLuk

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>>Where exactly is it? Might be interesting just to take a drive through and see the place. I'd imagine there are some beautiful homes all competing with each other. A 4x4 in every driveway! Or a BMW or Mercedes.<<

 

Actually just more new pick ups than you can imagine ::

 

The houses are pretty awesome, Sin Sot there averages from 1,000,000bt up. Its a curiosity that neighbouring village girls can find husbands easier here due to the fact that so many of the Ban Jan girls just don't marry local boys.

 

The Village Itself is located 20kms on from Roi Et, Amphur Sarapoom.

 

 

 

I have no Idea if there are other places like it, but I hope not. There are so many stories involving heartbreak and despair that come out of the place it's unbelievable. Its a good advert for Human nature at it's very worse.

 

>>Have you ever been there?<<

 

Nope I don't think that would be a wise move for me. I just deal with the effects of the place everyday. ;)

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P127,

 

"well, i used intuition because i think it would rather be immodest to say i know for sure, exactly because i have not lived years in a issan village."

 

Your modesty is duly noted. :)

 

"BTW, I do rarely stay in BKK, and i also most likely move around the region a bit more than most here. You are probably the only one here to claim I should stay more in Issan."

 

Hahaha. Yes, I know you do manage to get out of the BKK and Pattaya areas frequently on your trips over. I was just cracking wise P. And I didn't mean you should spend more time in Isaan, I meant to one day you might consider staying an extended period in an Isaan "village". Hell, most of the cities and towns in Isaan are nothing really like a village proper. Big difference in the two experiences really. Like Surin. It's not much like staying in the village. Although it has many advantages for a farang staying outside of BKK and Pattaya and other more touristy areas.

 

"But yes, my life is still in SF, and my trips to Thailand are mostly spend traveling, and not dtaying for months in the same issan village. Maybe someday...."

 

I think you'd enjoy it.

 

"I am not sure about how many women i should gather data from, it' not really my idea about traveling, though i met quite a few."

 

Ah ha! See, here is where you used the word "data". It wasn't me pal! I'm just saying that your experience in talking to some of the ladies and people seem to be different and have brought you to conclusions that my own experiences have taken me to some other conclusions. I do try to take advantage of any Thai I meet who I can talk to who doesn't seem to mind discussing certain subjects. Some are uncomfortable talking about certain subjects. If the feeling is right that I get from a person I'll push the envelope a bit and try to get a bit more in depth responses as to how they feel about certain things. Some things make them very uncomfortable to discuss though.

 

"I am just giving my thoughts as experienced on the topic and don't claim someone else's thought are wrong for being different."

 

I'm not saying you are wrong 100%, but I am saying I've had experiences that have led me to think differently, and think your statements have come about and been expressed in a way I cannot fully agree with. Hence, the push for a more detailed discussion on this. So I can again see where it is exactly you are coming from, and how you reached these, to me anyway, distorted, a bit, conclusions. (We've done this before you surely remember, no?)

 

"I am well aware of the pitfalls of being a prostitute and the greed there is for some families. Still, I do not think the topic was quite about that."

 

As would any sensitive person. But here you try to restrict the topic into a much more limited area. Why? The topic is, "A bargirl's standing in the village". Pretty broad topic I feel, which can include a lot of things in the subject matter.

 

"More about public reactions and showing disapproval or rejection because the girl would be a prostitute foremost, more than a village or family kin."

 

I'm sorry. I don't see this being said, or implied, at all. Why do you see this as being only about "public" reactions?

 

"As for the reaction to the monies coming from the girls, Here, yes, i used my Pattaya experience to know that many girls do/did not send that much home to really provoke great greed or envy from the neighbours."

 

Haha. Well, some do not send back much. Some don't go with farang much, only to make their minimum requirements of the bar, enough to get by on, and just enough to keep the family back in the village off their backs. A lot of them don't like the work they do, and so just do the minimum they need to, to "get by". Some on the other hand, especially the gogo bar "stunners", make much more money, send back much more, have the ability to make much more, and some grab every baht they can get their hands on. There are many levels of involvement by the lasses in this work.

 

"I also think that anyone flaunting or simply showing affluence in the village can provoke envy or jealousy from others, a negative but natural feeling, and it does not matter where that money comes from, a shop owner, a married thai expatriated or a prostitute."

 

Yes. I agree. But here we ARE talking about a "bargirl's" standing in the village community, not a shop owner. Right? So what are you saying? That envy is bad? That flaunting is bad? I agree, but you're off the topic really. Bargirls sending home big money does cause these things. (And really P by a lot of money I mean by village standards, not our own. You'd be amazed how little most things cost to have done up in the villages. It doesn't take much to show others you are bringing in much more money than would be expected from a girl working as a seamstress let's say in BKK.) Because you knew some girls in Pattaya that didn't send big money home means this isn't happening? Were these gogo dancers who were superstars and stunners you were talking with? I think probably not, but even so there are ladies who send off quite a bundle in village terms to the folks back home. (Or were they freelancers or beer bar ladies you were talking with maybe? Or waitresses or hotel maids?)

 

"As my GF says: if i have money, i have many friends.... Well, one does not need to be a prostitute to realize and live that."

 

And these are not true friends if she is implying that when she doesn't have money she has no friends. But still, I don't understand exactly where you are coming from here. We are talking about bargirls here in this thread, and there standing in the village.

 

"Within her own family, we know the ones who are expecting her to be rich on account of her farang BF, and the ones who never make demands on her, fortunately these are a huge majority."

 

I agree. Within my own Thai family I am rarely asked to contribute, and then I see exactly what I am contributing to, and never for one of the "extended family". They haven't asked in ages, as I refused. But there weren't many requests to begin with. So yeah, I agree, the majority aren't a problem. At least not for me also in my family. Same as you yourself.

 

"My experience of village life is not so much that neighbours opinions count, as the family networks are very tight-knitted and neighbours who participate in the family life are like family too. The very fact of that type of network, where all depends on all, and harmony is important within, tends to make anyone else an outsider whose opinions are not as paramount as close family."

 

While I agree with what you say here for the most part that the village family can be self-sufficient for the most part, and care a lot less what "outsiders" think, I feel you are forgetting how the family can and will be affected by these outside influences within their village community. They don't live in a vacuum, and in a village this is much more so than living in a larger city. Others can affect the lady and her family. What others think and how they act toward the family does matter to a certain extent. In another post I explained this in more detail so I won't repeat myself here.

 

"Still, My GF has told me that her daughter has never been insulted or called names in the school village for Mom having a farang BF, and living in Pattaya."

 

Well, did you expect her to be? In a school setting, with teachers about, and with the way we know Thais don't usually behave this way in public? Neither has my daughter experienced this herself, even while living in Pattaya. But she was robbed of her new sneakers I'd bought her, twice, on the way home from school, by older Thai kids. It was one of the reasons we closed the shop in Pattaya and moved it all up to the village. "Too much baby mafia in Pattaya!" was the way my wife put it. And in the quality of a lot of Thai Pattaya residents and the high levels of Thai on Thai crime there.

 

"About how her own Mom reacted to learning how she made money, this has indeed very little to do with what a parent would react in the west to learning this. Even as she may worry about her daughter, there was no deep shame thrown on the family and no wailing or shouting."

 

Again though you expect to see public displays of this shame and concern. There will be no wailing and shouting. This is Thailand. Not San Fran or Boston or elsewhere. It's just not their way, and especially this wouldn't be discussed in front of you with much emotion shown I'd think. How did she react by the way? How was this brought up? Why was it brought up? Can you explain more about this?

 

"I remember what one Issan teacher told me about poor Issan people when we talked about acceptance and dignity in their life. Her claimed that when you are so poor and tomorrow is less than certain, dignity is a luxury ill-afforded, and that people have to make do, one way or another."

 

Well, bullshit again! :: Are you trying to tell me that because a Thai teacher expressed this that you take this as being true? For some maybe. For the ones that don't care how they relieve their poverty. But if this be so then why do so many NOT go this route to get more money? Why to "the majority" of poor Isaan folk work their fields and pick crops along the roadside, and grow a vegetable and fruit garden for food. Why do they work their asses off to survive and not all just send their daughters off to BKK and Pattaya and other places to work the gogos, and brothels, and beer bars and blowjob bars and such? I see plenty of poor Thais with their dignity intact. Not all Thai teachers are that bright P127. Most university educated teachers are no further educated than an American kid who has graduated from a decent US high school, really. Was this teacher the product of a poor Thai village? Where'd he been raised? Where'd he get the money to go to university and become a teacher? A nice "sound bite", but utter horseshit from my own experiences here. A nice way to explain it away. How extensive was this discussion you had with this teacher? Yes, some do just make do and will do anything they have to to do it, and some, a lot to be exact, do it in a way that leaves their "dignity" intact.

 

"Maybe he should check his data too, i dunno."

 

Let's not get cunty here P! :: Maybe he damned well should check his "data"! (Again this word I never once used in this thread!) Or stop shining on the farang with his bullshit platitudes. Sorry, I don't take something a Thai teacher says as gospel, just because he's Thai and a teacher, that's for sure! I've met too many dullards and dolts teaching in Isaan to do that! :p

 

"So, in short, i never said that prostitution is not something that they wish they could avoid, all my positions on this subject come out, once in a while ("shame on thailand for selling its daughters" in a nutshell), but that, if i dare repeating, the social stigma is very benign back in the village (people gossiping behind their back is altogether a different thing), and that they are rarely rejected or morally, publicly stoned for "being a whore"."

 

Benign in our eyes maybe. As you say, no public stonings here. The mullahs don't run the country, thank Christ, and Buddhism is a very laid back religion and belief system. You're right to that extent.

 

"And yes, i acknowledged more personal damage to oneself, but here again, i have always have been impressed by so many people i met in South east Asia, for not over-complaining or self-commiserating about their condition, which we westerners could find harrowing if put in their position."

 

Yes, their stoicism is admirable, but also one of the reasons they are used and abused by those in charge and the big business fat cats who exploit them. Or by their own parents and society and so-called "customs".

 

"Which is far from ignoring that conflicts erupt within thenselves, and also in the family at times, but all in all, it is a private nor a public matter, which i understand the topic was about."

 

The conflicts are there, public and private. It's all just a bit too subtle to pick up sometimes when not there for a longer period of time, and without the chance to delve in depth in conversations and experiences where you see behind those lovely smiles.

 

"Incidentally, I am impressed your own data seems about girls who can buy all this stuff you mention. I again have not experienced that much ostentation or flaunting or wealth in the women I have known, personally or thru my GFs."

 

Well, maybe you've been running in different circles than I have. For a long while I did the upper end massage ladies and higher end gogo bars in BKK, not so much Pattaya. That came later. But I've seen and been told by some ladies I knew or was involved with how much is sent home, what is done with the money, the houses I've seen built with these dollars are quite nice in comparison to most village houses. There are many different levels within the scene 127. BKK was higher end moneywise for a long time compared to Pattaya. Not so much now though, although Pattaya is still cheaper than BKK and you can find good value for your money there compared to BKK even today still. Just because you haven't experienced it or spoken with ladies who have the ability to send back large sums doesn't mean it isn't there. There's quite a lot of it about, really. May I ask which end of this spectrum did these ladies you spoke with reside? What was their "job"? Where? How long ago?

 

"Only talking from my experience, but allow me the right to say it's as real as anyone else's."

 

As I am from my own. You have your rights, as I have mine. One of mine on a discussion board is to disagree with yours, if I may at times, no? Both sets of experiences are "real", they just differ, making us reach sometimes different conclusions and opinions. As they say, your mileage may vary. This applies to many aspects of Thailand, not just a girl you barfine. And applies to these discussions as well.

 

Later P127. Nice talking with you and sharing thoughts and experiences and opinions. ;)

 

Cent

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I absolutely agrre with you on the stigma in the places you speak about, but the thread was asking about the village, and somehow, i will maintain that a large family to which the girl belongs will not be opened to as many sarcasms, rejection or look-downs from other villagers.

 

But yes, in Thailand, I am quite aware of all the unspoken and hierarchal relations between people, even in a village, so that a girl who has a rather small network to rely on may be more open to vexations. Jasmine talked about respect, but a lot of very poor villagers, not owning land, are not that much "respectable" to begin with, so what have they got to loose if the daughter sends home P4P money.

 

I also see that the girl's situation is not publicized so overtly, so that other villagers may assume what she is, but can't really act too openly about it, especially if harmony between them and her family is important to maintain. This is in that case that even someone who is married/living with a farang may be open to underseved vexations, because people assume something wrongly.

 

Another thing i experienced is that many girls are tougher from working in P4P, and can stand as an individual if people start poking them about it in their village. Again, having an extended family in good standing in the village helps. Usually what they say if i ask them about possible smearing is: "what i do is my business, not theirs. If they don't like it, no one forces them to associate with me or my family".

 

It's just fair to assume that all our experiences are valid, and make the question a rather wide open topic without block answers.

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Replying to your new post:

 

Hell, most of the cities and towns in Isaan are nothing really like a village proper.

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I know,except for UBon, I have usually stayed in villages. Of course, these past 3 years, mostly my GF's, near Korat.

 

 

I think you'd enjoy it.

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I do, already. :)

 

 

I'll push the envelope a bit and try to get a bit more in depth responses as to how they feel about certain things.

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"why you ask so much questions?...Why you want to know everything?..... I think one day you think too much, you die...."

Yep, i know what you mean ::.

 

 

But here you try to restrict the topic into a much more limited area

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Well, it's just that if the subject is her standing in her village, i would think the OP meant the village towards her, not her family towards her. But Greed, jealousy and envy from othert villagers are far from meaning ostracizing or social rejection, moreover.

 

 

Why do you see this as being only about "public" reactions?

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Because on'e standing depends on reactions, even private, to be acted out at some point. You talked of the family having to pay for field help, this is a perfect example of a public and detrimental reaction. About this aspect, i would like to know if they have to pay because people want to punish them for having a BG as daughter, or because they think they have money, so let them pay for it?

 

 

That envy is bad? That flaunting is bad? I agree, but you're off the topic really.

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not if my point was to say that it may have nothing with being a sex worker, but to be coming back from the big city with a certain level of financial success.

 

 

Because you knew some girls in Pattaya that didn't send big money home means this isn't happening?

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never said that. BTW, i included thai/thai sex workers in my idea of small income sent. Here, actually, i would think that there might be more vexations for a brothel girl and her family than a girl fixed up with farang(s).

 

 

What others think and how they act toward the family does matter to a certain extent.

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yes, and as i replied in the previous post, the family previous standing in the village, and how extended it is, change a lot of things. In my GF's family, which is big, many people go abroad to work, so that many monies come from different people, according to their employement that year. If villagers are curious how this or that was bought, i do not think they'd know if it was from P4P, her subsequent BF (me), or her brother in Taiwan, or her cousin in Israel, etc....

 

 

But she was robbed of her new sneakers...... in Pattaya

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just for fun: my time to say what does it have to do with standing in the village? :neener:

 

 

How did she react by the way? How was this brought up? Why was it brought up? Can you explain more about this?

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Why you want to know everything. I think you know but you speak speak speak...... ::

Actually a good point, on all counts. She waited 3 years and after her father's death to tell her Mom. It shows that indeed, to be "working with men" is not 1) always forced on them 2) not to be super proud of 3) if obvious to Mom now, maybe not so to neighbours still.

 

 

Again though you expect to see public displays of this shame and concern.

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No, i did not. I meant the reaction was not the same as if my Mom had told her parents (very poor too) that when she was my GF's age.

Her Mom responded to her: " this is your choice, you decide for yourself, I cannot tell you what you can or cannot do, all i ask is that you never forget to care for your daughter".

Yes, IMO, very different from my own shores, and at the same time, i find this answer not out of place, well-wishing still, quite along the Buddhist "philosophy".

 

 

I see plenty of poor Thais with their dignity intact.

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Ahahah, that is exactly what i was telling him.

 

 

Not all Thai teachers are that bright P127.

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I would not cite any teacher i;d have met on the spot. He was a very bright guy, had been studying in Australia, very interested in environmental subjects, his goal was to help people around his district to learn how to be self-sufficient, and gain self-respect from that and applying Buddhism in their lives, not just at the temple. He was living in an open space on his own land, which he cultivated and adorned with plants and flowers, all around a pond. He understood but deplored that people had to leave their villages, but feared they lost more than they gained in the process. Not rich but intending to live at his own pace a simple but still rich life .

Haven't met too many thais like him, actually. That was near Sakon Nakon.

 

 

It's all just a bit too subtle to pick up sometimes when not there for a longer period of time, and without the chance to delve in depth in conversations and experiences where you see behind those lovely smiles.

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I've had too many TGFs from humble extraction to have not seen what's behind the smiles. Indeed, I would not carry Thailand so deep in my heart, without their presence and what i learnt from them.

 

 

Just because you haven't experienced it or spoken with ladies who have the ability to send back large sums doesn't mean it isn't there.

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Absolutely. The super well-off are not just the majority, IMO.

 

 

 

not just a girl you barfine

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I'd have a hard time remembering the last time i barfined a girl.

 

 

Nice talking with you and sharing thoughts and experiences and opinions.

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Likewise, Hope we meet someday! :applause:

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BkkGrey said:

>>They are. It's just not put on public display as it would be in the west. Why? The Buddhist religion. Those that believe, believe that in a future reincarnation these sort will get their comeuppance.<<

 

Some places here are so far gone and twisted that even that doesn't hold true unfortunately. In Ban Jan before the girls go off to Switzerland the Local Monks hold a "Pussy Blessing" ceremony so that the girl will be lucky with as many customers as possible.

 

The only "religous" or "moral" teaching they get is that they are obligated to repay their parents.

 

This I find incomprehensible! Not to say that I don't believe you, mind you, but I'll be mulling this craziness for days. How can this be so? :dunno:

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>>How can this be so?<<

 

Because That's the way it is there :dunno:

 

On Channel 5 his morning there was a monk on talking about these various ceremonys here. Ive never seen his name in english but it sounds like Prayom Gunrayono, he's often on Tv talking sense. Today he was saying things like "Why do we have so many fatal car accidents after the cars have been blessed by monks?? Because that isn't what we are here for"

 

And the main reason he was on was because some girl had been through something bad after going to New Zealand. Her Parents couldn't understand why it had happened as they had been through this ceremony to keep her lucky. So this Monk was on saying that the whole Idea of girls going overseas is wrong in the first place so he can't understand why temples are involved at all. Why are they performing ceremonys linked more to "saiasat" than Buddhism instead of just teaching that the trade is wrong.

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[color:"red"] Then they really must stop wearing mini skirts, platform boots, gold and revealing tops

 

[/color]

 

It is true that they way some dress do make some differrence. However, many people lump the women in one group. As far as I am concern, it is the ignorance of people, nothing else.

 

Jasmine

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[color:"red"] On Channel 5 his morning there was a monk on talking about these various ceremonys here. Ive never seen his name in english but it sounds like Prayom Gunrayono, he's often on Tv talking sense. Today he was saying things like "Why do we have so many fatal car accidents after the cars have been blessed by monks?? Because that isn't what we are here for"

 

[/color]

 

It is so refreshing to hear about such monks. People think that being "blessed" by monks, things will be ok. Some Isaan people told me of girls going for prostitution ask for monks' blessing so they can make lots of money from customer!!! Give me a break!!

 

I posted not long ago that some monks should be kicked out and thanks for posting about a true monk. :hug:

 

Jasmine :)

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I posted not long ago that some monks should be kicked out...

 

Kicked out for blessing a bar girl so she can be successful?

 

This raises the question of who else the monks should withhold blessing from. I wonder if the monk is really wrong to bless bar girls. (I started a thread on this question in the arts and culture forum)

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