Condoms and catching diseases

[iuytrede]

I would translate village as moo baan

and amphur as town.

 

The amphur has typically more than 10000 inhabitants and is - as others have said - an administrative center, I don't think one would call this a village in English. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

The mix of ethnicities in the amphur is often different from the surrounding moo baan.

 

Every amphur has a lot of businesses for prostitution. By "a lot" I mean compared to a small town in Germany or the US. There are cheap places for truck and bus drivers and there are more upscale places for the local rich.

The sex workers in these businesses do usually not come from the same district (= amphur). They come from far away (in the South, they often come from Isaan), through middlemen, and they will usually change every 3 months or so. So the customer doesn't get bored if he sees the same girl for years and he doesn't run the risk to meet a relative or his student working in a brothel.

[Guest]

I think of amphur as "county" (in US usage, anyway; maybe shire in UK usage?).

[the_numbers]

Awww, fly

 

I thought I might learn something actually... from your village-ways. I think Pattaya127 was doing the same thing.

 

I'm not much of a BG fella' anyway so its not about harbouring personal delusions those usually come from alcohol and manifest themselves in a Don Quixote fashion.

 

I don't think you need to get randy and call me ignorant. Get off your pedestal of anthropology and explain a few things in contrasy to what I'm saying that's what I was searching for in my previous post.

 

If you and your GF have the skinny then so be it. I just hate to think you can't see the other side of things, as opposed to dismissing them. The whole board attempts to learn from one another.

 

easy tiger.

 

the_numbers

[the_numbers]

iuytrede. thank you.

 

I was trying to make the point you made in my previous post via example. Amphur is a bigger thing, and to a certain extent by discussing for example Mae Sod you can get at that - central spots functions in the way you described as a truckdriver/whoremonger haven rather than moo bans.

 

Certainly they have a higher level of turnover and commerce than any hi-so schmoozing their way into moo ban shacks..

 

The point in the initial post was just unclear to me. But everything happens sometimes maybe that was the point?

 

 

the_numbers

[Guest]

>>>and amphur as town. <<<

 

what you describe is more of a district capital, or "amphur muang". that has more than 10 000 inhabitants.

[ThaiHome]

Since we strayed off the usage condoms and into the hierarchy of upcountry population centers, I will put in my 2 cents.

I don't know the Thai terms, so this will be in a mix of US and Thai vernacular. This descripes a regon due east of Bangkok, not really Issan, though, at least within my wife's village, most of the people there seem have roots in Issan, particulary Korat area. Used to be landless and came down here 2 or 3 generations ago and got land.

 

My wife's family lives in what I call a village. This is reached by a dirt road off a numbered secondary highway (Wooden handwritten sign at turnoff). There is drinking shack, "convenience store", dirt roads (they have put about 200 m concrete on each of the 2 main roads through it; village votes 100% TRT), a single landline pay phone (less then a year old), a wat with 6 monks and no working prostitutes; maybe 150 people max. There is probably at least 50 or more of these within 40 KM.

 

Up the road about 2 KM is what I would call a very small town. Paved turnoff same highway, a couple of dry goods stores, shacks that pass for "pubs", probably a few available women, the primary school and daily outdoor market. Maybe 500-1,000 people. There is about 20 of these within 40 KM, probably more, I just have no reason to see them. I suspect that one of these is TTM's wife's home.

 

Up the other way about 10 KM is the district town. Right on highway, with what in the US is called frontage roads with shops down each side. You can buy most anything there. Has a larger daily outdoor fresh food market and the secondary school. Never seen it, but I am sure there is a more or less complete nightlife there. Used to have a bank and ATM, but is closed and has been for the 4+ years I have been going there. Probably a couple of thousand people, max. I have been to 4 other towns this size within 40 KM, assume each has an amphur office.

 

40 KM up the highway is the provincial capital. Has a single working stoplight, need I say more?

That is my take.

TH

[Guest]

>>>example Mae Sod <<<

 

mae sot is far bigger than your average ampur, closer to the size of a smaller district capital, and anyhow a special case as it is a border town (i have spent several months there a decade ago, so i do know the place and its surroundings).

 

i am talking about the normal average ampur: a small police station, a little market, some tool shops, a small hospital.

 

surrounding in some distance are many mu bans, collections of houses of maybe 200 inhabitants, mostly interrelated.

 

generally in the main amphur, at the market, you have some tiny village style pub where you can have some coke, or beer, a perfect place to meet up while innocently going to the market.

 

the shacks i am talking about are not your mae sot style border brothels, but the structures you see in every ricefield. they are generally only used during the harvest season, but they are, when dark, also used for meeting up out of sight.

 

or you have at the highways other kind of pubs. those are used by the already more professional village women. those generally have some rooms in the back.

 

or people go to the nearest town (if the bloke has a car) and rent a hotel room.

 

 

what can i say other than that in the villages i have studied/am studying this is endemic. i have also lived for two and a half years in a village close to bangkok where this was going on as well.

and i have observed over the last decade how girls get into prostitution from the village angle as well. none of them had a clean record before they came to bangkok or any other place in thailand. they all started off in greyzone and semi prostitution in the mu ban/village before moving to greener pastures. i have seen nieces of my missus growing up and slipping into prostitution.

 

yes, and i have been in the temple in lopburi, and many other similar establishments, i have looked at the issue of AIDS from many different angles. one angle for example is that the favourite uncle of my missus is right now staying with us, and he got infected by his exwife.

 

what can i say other that the general stereotypes of transmission do not correspond with the sexual behavior of people in the village.

the stereotype of "whoring husband infects wifey" is flawed as it just neglects the change of sexuality of thai village women in the years of the boom, and the years after the boom.

 

the main reason why this is neglected is a certain romanticised picture of village morals, made even more difficult by the prevelant face culture. a trap even many researchers fall into.

it is taken for granted that the village women is largely exploited and powerless, sits at home and is faithful to her philandering hubby. stupid stereotypes that thai women would accept her husband playing around.

 

if you look a bit deeper into the issue of village life these facades break down completely. you see realities as i have described them, and then you will see that reality does not correspondent with the stereotypes.

 

another flaw is underestimating the transmission through tattooing. i would say that in lower classes and lower middle classes about 80% of the men are tattooed in often not hygienic conditions (not all tattoos are visable, many people prefer to have invisable oil tattoos, as in many professions people with tattoos are not accepted).

 

reality is a lot more complex, and so is the issue of transmission of AIDS today in thailand. i am not saying that a large percentage is not transmitted from philandering husband to wife, what i am saying is that transmissions the other way around, or primary infections by nonsexual ways, are underestimated, and often plainly neglected.

 

apart from a few anthropologists hardly anybody is actually going around and studies sexuality in village thailand. that way outdated and/or romantic views on the village are used as a base instead of realistic studies. unreliable and flawed government figures are not questioned and simply taken over.

 

the only thing i can say is: study the village, question everything that is told to you by sources who did not first hand study the village, and find out for yourself.

[the_numbers]

I understand what you mean so much better now Fly.

 

Thanks for taking the time to flesh out the information in a long post. In general I agree with your take.

 

Generalizations are dangerous indeed, but I haven't found as many bad studies out there, but that may simply be because I have not looked.

 

Fact gathering on AIDS is a nightmare because of the incubation period, and often a number of potential transmissions for a carrier in Thailand. I don't know if 80% of jangwat Thai people are tattooed for example, but its higher than a Western country and less sanitary. This is certain.

 

Secondly, about the ladies coming into the bar scene. I think they vary dramatically. Many were not outright prostitutes previously in the 'amphur'. Some are damages goods from rape, babies, or a million scenarios. However, most girls in recent years I've even been friends with are 'sans' horror stories. Alot of girls are just about the cash - how modern. A few were even born in Nonthaburi or Bangkok. Never did the mp route before, or thai scene

 

Villages definitely have these shacks that you've described in ricefields, however, they aren't out behind the crumbling shack for drinking usually in my experience. I know of one in Mae Chan area outside Chiang Mai that conforms to this notion, but its remote. Teenagers even go there to do the de-virginization ritual :hubba:

 

I'd say its pretty discreet. I think its not endemic, but present. Sex is a part of life, and not in an amped up way that is irregular or shocking.

 

I would never say that a thai woman was powerless in the village just because of her chromosome pair. On the contrary women are usually running the show, and that's obvious if you spend much time around the household. If researchers are embracing this stereotype of Thai women I haven't read their studies thankfully!!

 

 

Good thread.

 

Cheers,

 

the_numbers

[Guest]

>>>My wife's family lives in what I call a village.<<<

 

 

yep, that is a typical mu ban. the picture you painted there covers most of thailand in little variations. lots of mu bans like this generally form the next higher level, the amphur.

[Guest]

good, we are back on the right track

 

 

 

>>>Fact gathering on AIDS is a nightmare because of the incubation period, and often a number of potential transmissions for a carrier in Thailand.<<<

 

 

exactly that, and because a tendency even under researchers to take certain stereotypes at face level without questioning them thoroughly enough. i don't claim that i know the truth, but any of those simplistic statements you get from many officials, including certain NGOs, just stink.

i gave up on running around wildly trying to gather those facts, because i never get them, only flawed ones according to whatever agenda the person i talk with has.

i just concentrate on the places i have a real insight due to family association, and then extrapolate from that. maybe not scientifically sound, but i do feel that i come out of it with a far more realistic picture, and it does help me to sort out the bullshit factor when talking with people with agendas.

 

 

 

 

>>>However, most girls in recent years I've even been friends with are 'sans' horror stories. Alot of girls are just about the cash - how modern.<<<

 

and a lot of it starts in the village. when the husband cannot provide them with what they want they start off playing around there as some sort of amateur before dumping him and turning pro. interesting is that often the money, or goods, some of the richer village meen give them is far higher than what the average farang whoremonger pays them here for a short time. like, thai style girlfriend experience...

 

 

 

>>>I'd say its pretty discreet. I think its not endemic, but present.<<<

 

depends on the village, but even if endemic, it still is very discreet. always keeping up appearances... isn't that which keeps it all together here?