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Another Sinsot thread


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Ok....

 

The time is drawing near for me to have to come face-to-face with this issue.

 

This is not a Thai/farang issue. It's an issue alive and well, in all Thai relationships. A Thai guy will have to deal with this, the same as any other, outside of the culture. It is an indelible part of the Thai culture. But what is it really?

 

Here's my situation, in part: My g/f comes from central Thailand. She is college grad, with 1 other sister, who is now going to college. Her parents both work for the government, in fairly decent positions (equivalent to city hall officers, with her dad being a dept. head, and mom just applying for, and receiving, a big promotion). The family is very clearly Thai 'middle class'. Two cars, nice house, and very respected within the community. The mom just sold some property for 600,000 baht, so they have some change rattling around in their pockets.

 

Daughter in question (my tirak) has never been married, no kids, and no 'dark' history. She grew up with her grandmother, but only lived a short distance from parents while growing up. As such, she 'loves her grandmother the most', and will send small baht to her every month, as opposed to parents, who clearly don't need it. But she still has a VERY close relationship with both parents, and will go back to visit them every weekend (she works in BKK, and parents live 50 km. outside).

 

Here is my g/f's take on it: Sin sot is a very serious issue with all Thai's. Not for her, but for her family, as far as a face-saving issue. She jokes with me that it is unfortunate that I chose someone with parents with good jobs, and that fact dictates that the sin sot requirement will be higher. It would be impossible to have a Thai wedding, and only have a small amount of sin sot on the table. Family would not be able to walk down the street, without being in shame, if that were to happen. And I truly believe her.

 

I should note, that I will be bringing her here soon, on a fiance visa. Her plan is to work here, so she can come up with required sin sot, so that we can go back to Thailand, and be married there. Yes....I'm not kidding. She wants to pay her own sin sot. She is a very sincere girl, whom I send no money to. She is self-providing there (has decent job), and asks me for nothing. We talk every day for hours, and have done so for 1.5 years, when I can't be with her in Thailand. We are about as solid as you can get.

 

Which brings us to the 'meat' of the situation. What dictates the amount? Certainly, the girl is taken into concideration. If was married before, has kids already, was involved in the P4P scene at any time previous, etc., would all be points then taken as points of reduction, as I know it.

 

Another factor seems to be position of parents. Their status within the community dictates the amount greatly, it would seem to me. Amount must correspond to their position in life.

 

Of course, the biggest question of all, is whether parents will plan on keeping the money, or simply want it shown, to show the community/family, that they are releasing their daughter to someone with the means to be able to provide for her, thus fullfilling their duty, as good parents. How common is it that the family will actually keep the money?

 

I remember reading Nuttawud's site ( a Thai guy here) (thai-learning.com), and his writtings during this time for him. Thai girl's family was asking 500,000 baht, and so got his grandmother to negotiate for him. Quite a dance he had to go through, and one I'll have to go through, also. Like I said...it's not only us farang who are asked to to this tango.

 

What I'm really after, is true-life examples, so I have something concrete to base my actions on, in dealing with this, and a more better understanding of what it's all about.

 

In the end, I could never let my Visa card separate me from my tirak. I'll pay whatever I have to, to be with her. If it's a million baht, then so be it. It may be easy for some to simply say, 'just move on', and that I'm a sucker. But that's just not an option for me. And never has been, since the first day I met her.

 

HT

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It may be easy for some to simply say, 'just move on'

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I am sorry it all comes down to money.

 

It's just me, but i would feel the same as being hit by a BG for an extra 1000 in the morning.

 

After all, these people could very well put their daughter's happiness in jeopardy for a bunch of money.

 

I don't buy the cultural stuff (for once :) ) on it. there are just too many sin sod options in Thailand, including none, to make it that cultural. The large amount makes it very simply about money, not culture.

 

 

That's my take on it, i am just being frank.

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Hi,

 

"After all, these people could very well put their daughter's happiness in jeopardy for a bunch of money. "

 

:applause:

 

Having said that, I did pay (and received a large chunk of it back).

 

"What dictates the amount?"

 

In short, everything and nothing. Basically there are no real set rules. Some families may just want to get as much as they want (and keep it!), while others would be happy with just a token amount so as not to lose face.

 

"How common is it that the family will actually keep the money?"

 

Again, no set answer. Nor is this related to the status / wealth of the brides parents.

 

My suggestion, let your GF handle all of this until an amount has been mentioned. At that point it will be up to you to decide whether the amount is acceptable or that you want to negotiate a reduction or change in terms.

 

Good luck!

 

Sanuk!

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>>>>It's just me, but i would feel the same as being hit by a BG for an extra 1000 in the morning.<<<

 

No. I understand your thoughts, but is not the same. It's a very real thing. It's very complicated, I know. But can't simply be erased by saying is all a load of crap. It is very much cultural. There are not just a few Thai girls, who cannot be with their true love Thai guy, because of this.

 

It's just not as simple as a bar fine. My g/f's anguish over this is extreme. She is scared to death, what her mother might ask of me. And see's it as a possible death knell to our relationship. This whole thing goes much deeper than a bar fine. I will promise you that.

 

HT

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This whole thing goes much deeper than a bar fine. I will promise you that.

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Totally agree with you.....P4L is worse! And i talk about feelings meshed with money talk, not just amount.

 

Go into it as you best can choose, but please, be lucid, and do not rationalize it with cultural talk of loss of face talk. passed a certain token amount, if not given back, it's a financial transaction, no less.

 

Be also aware, that, no matter how well off they are, this may not be their last demands.

 

For ex., a farang who can pay sinsod of many 100 000 bahts, is rarely going to be comprehended as someone who can't be helping/generous again. The mention that it is a show of love commitment you can only do once will not register (IMO).

 

The next house down the street, with same wealth, could very well not up the stakes as it seems to happen in your GF's household.

 

 

I tend to think, given how "close" you guys quickly came to be, parents have what i would call, pay back leverage, and this may be what transpires thru the GF's anxiety you mention. More leverage on her than on you, most likely.

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I should also note, that I am still married. But only due to insurance reasons. I've not been with my wife for 5 years, but is why g/f cannot approach parents about sin sot. She cannot be comfortable with doing, while I'm married I'm techniclly married to another girl, which is very understandable. Next month, I will get divorce, and head to Thailand to have 'engagement' party.

 

This is very important to her, as she can then show my commitment to her, for all to see. She catches a lot of slack there, for having farang b'f, who has not 'committed'. I can understand her feelings very well. Her feeling is that if we have engagement party, then no one can say anything bad about her anymore, about having me as a partner. The fact is, she has to live with being called stupid every day, for remaining faithful to our relationship.

 

It's not a game. It's all very real. And when we can become 'honest' in terms of my divorce, and our engagement, then the sinsot debate will begin.

 

HT

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Hi p,

 

>>More leverage on her than on you, most likely.<<

 

This is very true. But...I've yet to enter into it yet. What I'm looking for is ammunition to fire back with, if becomes nessessary. :D

 

HT

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I have a friend who went through the sin sod crap with a middle class Thai chick. He was telling me how serious a cultural thing it is and such and he has to respect the tradition. I told him simply that the cultural thing was a load of crap. I asked him how beholden to culture and tradition could his future in laws and wife be, given that their daughter is marrying a farang, who is 18yrs older than her and will be living in the States? Cuture and tradition my ass!!

 

I told him if they don't need the money then they should be giving you every penny back or a gift of equal or greater value. He paid a huge sin sod but he got the majority back as cash and the wife got some nice property in Thailand as a gift from the parents.

As far as I know there are no fast and hard sin sod rules. Families seem to make them up as they go along.

 

I suggest you tell your GF what you are comfortable with from the outset and then let her handle the rest until you get the number and the process. Once you have that info you decide what you need to do. I would suggest that you enlist the help of some older and respectable Thai friends if you wnat to go the traditional way.

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Hi ND,

 

>>>My take on it - dont let anyone change the rules because your a farang,<<<

 

I agree 100%. But Thai guys have to deal with this same shit as well. My point is that they're not exempt. What I want to do, is delve deeper into the real world of this, as to what real life Thai dudes come across, and what crosses they have to bear, as well as us farang. That will give me a point from which, to shoot by.

 

HT

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