radioman Posted August 20, 2001 Report Share Posted August 20, 2001 I should first introduce myself a little and set the scene. Originally from UK I have lived here for just over 4 years. I am one of the 'lucky ones', company sponsored, Sukhumvit apartment, car, bills paid etc. I married my wife a couple of years back, we are expecting the first little one any day. That's me, now the scene. I recently sold my UK property after renting it out for a couple of years, I will never live there again and really would like to put down more permanent roots both for myself and the family. This raises the, in Thailand, thorny matter of buying a house. What I really want to do here is try and determine what the facts really are as there seems to be a lot of half truths and out of date info relating to this. At least that is my perception. Secondly, I would like to get an idea of where I can find something a little better than the average Bangkok slum house or moo bahn wreck. To start things off here is what I think I know so far: Looked at a property ou Don Muang way, kind of ideal cause it's near the airport, highways etc and not too far from party town. The guy would only negotiate down about 3-4% on the asking price, uh? Though I could buy it outright I want to keep money in the bank so at the request of my wife we went and talked to the bank. I'm thinking this would be a waste of time. Siam commercial said, no problem, you have foreign income, we want your money, how much would you like to borrow and over how many years. Second point here after I ask the, you know I'm not Thai right, question. Of course says the bank man, no problem but, you must be married and the house/loan has to be in both names. Now I'm real confused. I spoke further with the guy in the bank and he has tried to assure me that the rules, they are a changing, maybe not many know but they, the bank, are already into plenty of foreigner buying house/land type deals, note I said house/land, not condo. On the other hand I have tried to speak with what estate agent types there are here and some even refused to show me any properties because they said I couldn't possibly buy them. Ok, so now I'd like to hear from anyone with anything to say on this, I know there are plenty out there who have been through this, even heard of one guy, some years ago now, that had to divorce his Thai wife so they could buy, they later remarried. Comments eagerly awaited. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2001 Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 CQ20 Land in Thailand, you can’t buy it. It will have to be in your wife’s name or as in my case in my sons name as there can be more than one owner indicated on the land papers. House on the land, yes you can buy this and the most banks will provide the loan for this. I must say, that the most banks would like to see that this loan would be taken in both of you and your wife’s name. One last hint: If you decide to buy bare land, ensure that you buy land with proper papers and have the local ampur to re-measure it together with you and the owner of the land. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radioman Posted August 21, 2001 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 Ah, this is pretty much the way I figured it. I did also hear that some of the current crop of rule changes were only applicable in certain areas or to certain types of land/property. Have one friend who owns three or four properties around the country, he's been here for ever and bought some bare land many years ago, now has 'the right papers' for it, only took 25 years Whilst I have no doubts of my own position it wouldkind of feel nice that the ownership could be such that in the event of unforseen disaster I might be able to salvage something, maybe. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2001 Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 cq20, Check out the Phuket Gazette at www.phuketgazette.net under Issues and Answers. Read the past I&A's and if it doesn't have the answers to your questions, you can post your questions right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinsin2 Posted August 21, 2001 Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 Dundee "It will have to be in your wife’s name or as in my case in my sons name as there can be more than one owner indicated on the land papers." How old is your son? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2001 Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 “Whilst I have no doubts of my own position it would kind of feel nice that the ownership could be such that in the event of unforeseen disaster I might be able to salvage something, maybe” CQ20 This is subjected on the type of registration of your marriage. There are different levels “kow row” of registration at the Amphur. I went to see my embassy before marriage and they strongly recommended, going for the highest once. Yes this will cost a bit more at the amphur. Reason for this was to have (1) the marriage legally recognized in my home country and ( to be legally entitled on 50% of all the assets if thing are going sour. note that this was recommended by my embassy and I'm not sure for UK citizen. “Bare land without papers” Correct. This can take years to have the registration papers in place. I understand that the Government is (legally) able to claim the land back, especially those plots without papers. I personally would hesitate to buy land without papers, despite the much lower land prices. Note that also in landowner papers there are different levels of registration. SINSIN My son is going to be 10. Cannot you may want to say, yes it can. You will have to engage a lawyer who will provide all the necessary documents in order to have my son name to appear onto the papers and that he will be the beneficiary if anything should happened to me, my wife or both of us. This took a hell of a time as my son is registered as a Thai national but do not yet have an ID card. I bought 3 years ago 2 rai in Chiang Mai. I needed to sign a document that the money to buy the land is my wife’s money. After this, the ownership papers were transferred into my wife’s and my son name. Both are Thai nationals. I was lucky as the head of this area (village head) was very, very helpful in this, actually the best one I’ve ever seen so far. He did actually recommend re-measuring the land, as yes there was some discrepancy between the actual dimension and the one stated on the land papers. Did actually save some money on this as price could be negotiated further. A last note, there is a myth that Thai women should not change their surname after marriage to a foreigner, as they should not be able to buy land. This is Bull S..T. Surname doesn’t matter as long they are still a Thai national, they can still buy whatever they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinsin2 Posted August 21, 2001 Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 "My son is going to be 10. Cannot you may want to say, yes it can. You will have to engage a lawyer who will provide all the necessary documents in order to have my son name to appear onto the papers and that he will be the beneficiary if anything should happened to me, my wife or both of us. This took a hell of a time as my son is registered as a Thai national but do not yet have an ID card. I bought 3 years ago 2 rai in Chiang Mai. I needed to sign a document that the money to buy the land is my wife’s money. After this, the ownership papers were transferred into my wife’s and my son name. Both are Thai nationals." Very interested in what you are saying. I only made some superficial queries and got the usual "cannot". Could you be more specific on the paperwork? It is very important to anyone with family in LOS. I was catogorically told by 2 lawyers plus "accepted expat wisedom" that you have to be 18 plus to own land. If you and your wife split can she take your sons' name off the deed.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2001 Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 understand if you set up a Thai (a number of Thai shareholders sign over voting rights, costs 15,ooo baht)or foreign registered company the company can buy freehold land/property. looking further into this. will post new data as and when. anybody have anything more on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radioman Posted August 21, 2001 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 Now you got me worried I knew that there were about 4 different levels of land registration but what's this about different levels of marriage registration? I did the village thing, party on, you know. Then went to the Amphur office at a later date. What we got there was two identical certificates, in Thai, I remember taking one to get it translated and then sent it to UK through the embassy. This came back copied on UK government stationery to state that the marriage was also registered in the UK under the foreign marriage order. So I hope I did it right. Would like to know about the different levels though. On the setting up a company to buy land. My feeling is that this is really only worth it if you are going to operate a business anyway as once set up I think you have to supply regular accounts and show that the business is actually doing something. I get the impression that the remeasuring thing is highly advised too. Next question is how much should the farang be in evidence when looking/negotiating. Several have told me to keep as far out of the picture as possible and send the wife with one of my Thai friends to get a better deal, any thoughts? M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2001 Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 quote: Originally posted by farangbaa: understand if you set up a Thai (a number of Thai shareholders sign over voting rights, costs 15,ooo baht)or foreign registered company the company can buy freehold land/property. looking further into this. will post new data as and when. anybody have anything more on this? Property ownership by "aliens" is a sensitive issue in Thailand so you need to proceed carefully. A few careful comments. 1. The Land Act of 1954 prohibits alien ownership of land, absent some very narrow exceptions that probably do not apply to anyone here. 2. If the property is in the wife's name and you have signed papers stating that she used her own funds to acquire the property, it will be her separate property. If you divorce, the property is hers. No one likes to think about or plan for these sorts of problems when the marriage is going well (for example, when you are about to fund her acquisition of land), but if the investment is important to you, you need to seriously consider what will happen if and when you divorce. Plenty of farangs have lost what they consider to be serious money, sometimes their life savings, by not taking very simple precautions. 3. One option is for your wife to own the land, and then lease it back to you. The maximum term for a lease is 30 years. Make sure the lease is registered against the land. If you do not, you may have a claim for damages against the lessor (presumably your ex-wife), but not the current owner. The land department, however, may look upon such a transaction with suspicion if your wife shares your same last name or if your marriage is registered in Thailand. Practices vary tremendously with different land offices. 4. It is a criminal offense for a Thai to own land as the nominee of an alien. Notwithstanding that law, some aliens have set up two tier companies to exercise effective control over land. It is a bit too complicated to explain here, but it essentially involves having Thais hold at least 60% of the shares of the holding company in the form of preference shares possessing negative rights. The problem is that a Thai national must be an authorized director. You will also need to comply with various company formalities such as annual submission of audited financial statements (remember a company owns the land), and this can be a bit of a headache. 5. Don't believe everything you read on the web. Garbage in/Garbage out. Don't believe real estate sellers or agents, since they have a vested interest in seeing the transaction go forward. And be particularly careful of websites sponsored by property agents. In other words, exercise common sense. 6. Hire a reputable law firm. Quite obviously, do not go to a firm suggested by your girlfriend/wife. The best bet would be an international firm; they will be expensive and cautious, but they are not about to risk their reputations by double-crossing you (an unfortunate risk in LOS.) If you cannot afford an international firm or find one willing to handle your transaction (likely), try to find a smaller, reputable firm with a resident farang legal consultant - someone who has been in Thailand for at least three or four years or more, and has a proven track record of getting it right. (See the article in current edition of the Far Eastern Economic Review about the shortage of competent lawyers in Thailand.) 7. If you are one of the "lucky ones" with an expat package, you presumably work for an international company that uses an international law firm. You are also presumably in a position of authority. That law firm may typically avoid doing work for individual farangs wanting to acquire property, but may be willing to help to maintain a good relationship with your company. You should not expect or want them to take on the work for free (your company would probably, and rightfully, consider that self-dealing), but they may be willing to (a) do the work at a reasonable rate or ( recommend someone else reliable to take on the work. They have an interest in making sure they recommend someone reliable since you are presumably the local representative of their client. They probably also get these sorts of inquiries from people like yourself regularly. I have several friends in situations similir to yours, and they have all gone route ( and have been happy with the results. I know other farangs that failed to excercise common sense, did it the "Thai way" (whatever that means), and got burned. [ August 21, 2001: Message edited by: William Ginzer ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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