Disturbing Phnom Pehn "Slave" Brothel Report-

[Guest]

trust me - fighting the windwills is at least as tiring for me, as moderating those discussions are for you.

 

 

 

>>>He attacks those critics because they attack any and all posts on Cambodia. As has already been made clear most certainly not all prostitution in Cambo is indentured or underage, yet the critics seem to want to shut down any and all discussion on Cambo prostitution without bothering the confirm whether or not indentured / underage comes into play.<<<

 

 

well, i reckon mainly i am "those critics".

 

problem no 1:

 

i have never stated that all prostitution in cambodia is indentured, or underaged. never.

cent & co like to make me appear as if i did. but i never did so. ever.

 

 

 

problem no 2:

 

in the cambodian set up it is incredibly difficult to discern who is indentured and who is not. in the same brothels both systems are at work. there is no way to confirm unfortunately. that is the basic problem with allowing those trip reports and discussions.

[gummigut]

"but as soon as the subject of cambodia is touched upon, we get one aspect of it - sex, and from one single angle - the indulgent and selfcentered viewpoint of the sextourist.

problem is that cambodia is a far too compex issue, and especially the sex scene, to be only viewed from this viewpoint."

 

fozw, you serve as the LIE to your words. We NEVER ever get one point of view. Even if sextourism is just touched on, you're there with an "attack" about you'll never know if it's indentured.

 

<<burp>>

[Guest]

was that your constructive contribution to the issue at hand?

 

can we now expect a tirade of the usual biting sarcasms directed at me?

[kamui]

khunsanuk said:

The equation 'prostitution in Cambo = indentured / underage prostitution' just does not hold true. Yet some people on this board are doing their best to convince everybody that it is.

 

"prostitution in Cambo = indentured / underage prostitution", that's the equation that the christian NGO's like to spread and some media as well. The other side of the coin is that punters (not here on the board) use this biased and false argument to condemn even valid claims of forced and underage prostitution. IMHO both groups paint a wrong picture. Unfortunately the person/groups who have a more 'real' and detailed view on the prostitution scene in Cambodia are rarely heard. It seems that judgements on the prostitution scene in Cambo are very difficult to make and that it is better to stick to the simple facts.

 

IMHO better than 10 pages of general discussion about the evil (or not evil) of P4P in Cambo it would be much better to have some reports with places where the probability of meeting women who are forced to work as prostitutes are very very low.

This facts could give a guidance for men who want to go to Cambo and to have some fun without supporting the local Mafia and their illegal activities too much, since the other specialized board on P4P in Cambo won't give you such information (since for them forced prostitution doesn't exist in the Farang scene or is not worth to be discussed :

[khunsanuk]

Hi,

 

"i have never stated that all prostitution in cambodia is indentured, or underaged. never.

cent & co like to make me appear as if i did. but i never did so. ever."

 

Bull, Fly, you attack every single post dealing with any form of prostitution in Cambo. You will not allow any posts on Cambo as they *may* deal with indentured / underage prostitution. To me this does seem to indicate that you see any prostitution in Cambo as evil.

 

And as for Gummigut's comment, I think he is quite right on the mark.

 

Kamui :

"IMHO both groups paint a wrong picture."

 

Fully agree.

 

"it would be much better to have some reports with places where the probability of meeting women who are forced to work as prostitutes are very very low."

 

Again, I agree, but likelyhood of such a post not being shouted down as promoting indentured / underage prostitution is also very very low.

 

Sanuk!

[Central Scrutinizer]

Fly,

 

"what concerns me here on the board is that cambodia is a definate destination for western sextourism."

 

So is Thailand. What the hell do you think Pattaya, Patong,and Patpong, and Soi Cowboy and Nanaplaza, and Soi Zero, and the old Clinton Plaza, anf the Thermae are there for? And why do you keep mentioning "Western"sex tourism, as though westerners doing so are somehow worse than all the Eastern men doing so, like Japan, and China, and Malaysia, and Singapore. Shall I go on listing all the "Asian" sex tourists visiting Thailand, and Cambodia as well. Or is this some racist prejudice that the supeior white men should know better? I really hate this constant distinction you use. They are all sex tourists, but you seem to despise the western ones and fairly dismiss the oriental man doing the same damned thing. Why is this?

 

"nothing i can do about it."

 

Yes, there is, and you've already done it. You've stopped partaking of the pleasures of the flesh for the payment of money. You've done your part. And you have a wife to take care of you in the ways men find pleasant and pleasurable for a woman to do so, so much so that some even willingly pay big money for it. Makes it a bit easier for you though doesn't it? Well, doesn't it? And it's so much easier to come down on those who patronize the P4P scene when you've already admitted to having indulged deeply yourself for a year or more, right? You had your fun, but fuck these other guys who want to enjoy the same. You've seen the light and how horible it all is, after geting your turn that is, right? Sounds a bit selfish and hypocritical to me, does it to you other guys out there?

 

"there is also nothing i can possibly do to persuade tourists not to visit brothels there,"

 

You're right, you can't. It is their choice. Just like it is our choice to read about it if they post their adventures here under the rules and regulations and guidelines of the board. KS' rules, not FlyW's. KS' board, as well as all the other members who make up this board besides FlyW. No one puts a gun to your head and says, "FlyW, you gotta read this stuff or we'll blow your brains out!" These trip reports have been going around for ages, since before the internet started. Did you picket the bookstores that sold the books and magazines that told these stories? No? Why not? Maybe because it is a private thing between the book buyer and his conscience in what he wants to read. Should you be allowed to burn these books? No? Should you be allowed to stalk the authors of these stories at their job or home or on the street. No. You'd be placed on a Restraining Order and cited for harrassment. Probably pay a fine and have it go on your record. Then what gives you the right to do it here on this board? Is it not stalking here to zone in on certain writers/posters stories and harrass them? Is it right for you to try to disrupt certain forums, which no one forces you to read? To stalk the posters every post? To try to keep others from reading them? No, it's not right and it is the same as if you were doing it out in oublic, only we don't know where to send the restraining order or the cops to arrest you for stalking and harrassment. That is what the mods and KS are supposed to do. Keep you from being able to do this to posters and members who are posting under the rules, regulations and guidelines provided for all of us to follow.

 

"and instead look for the other non-sexual beauties cambodia has to offer."

 

I spent my honeymon in Siem Reap visitng Anglor Wat. I saw plenty of sing-a-song ladies, bar ladies, and freelancers about every night. They were not indentured any more than the Pattaya and Bangkok ladies are. There are venues in Cambodia just like in Thailand. Just like there are places in Thailand as horrible as you SOUGHT OUT to study "in depth". You could probably find the same in most third world countries and countries torn by war and civil strife. Come to America, you can even find it here.

 

"it in the end is up to them."

 

As it is up to everyone here. It is also "up to them", not you, to read what they choose within the rules here.

 

"what i can do is to criticise "trip reports" to cambodia's brothelvillages here,"

 

What you can do is not read them. Or if you do and see something against the rules you can notify KS or the mods. What is not your right is to harrass those you think you don't agree with every time they post something you don't like. And you do do this, every time, endlessly.

 

"posting my opposing experiences, and hope that those sort of trip reports are not gonna be tolerated here due to the difficult set up in cambodia."

 

What "opposing experiences"? I've never seen you write a trip report or story describing the horrors you've seen and experienced in Cambodia. Consider this Fly. Your TV has 100's of stations if you have the complete cable package. Some of the channels are smut, or disturbing images, slasher movies, horrible programs you do not want to see. Do you throw out your TV set and condemn everyone who watches one? IS there any reason you cannot not watch these shows you abhor? Does anyone force you to watch these shows? Of course not. Consider this board a TV set. Same priciple. There are things you don't want to see on here. Don't watch them, but don't tell the rest of us we can't watch the stations we want to watch or try to fuck with our TV or the programming we enjoy. (And I am not saying I enjoy these sort of trip reports myself. I don't read them usually unless they are well done and have a comedic or certain quality that sets them apart.) But the difference here is you don't want anyone to be able to show and watch these programs. I change the channel and let other adults do as they wish.

 

"the big difference between cambodia's scene, and thailand's scene is, that here in thailand it is relatively easy to avoid places of indentured prostitution as long as people stick to the mainly discussed areas - western oriented prostitution."

 

The only difference is it is well hidden from western eyes in Thailand, but still the nasty stuff we all abhor can be had for a price. Same in America, it just costs more. And no where here do we on this board condone or promote these things.

 

"that though is not so easy in cambodia."

 

And a lot of other places as well that have gone through what Cambodia has gone through and are poor like Cambodia. Not just in the east, but the west, SA, Haiti and the islands, Mexico, Africa, Europe, Russia, and the rest of the world.

 

"what happens in the rest of asia does personally concern me a lot, but the rising sexindustry of other asian countries, i have some knowledge about, is so far not much of a topic on this board here. fortunately."

 

Well, that's because this board it Thai-centric, but it began and still has as its main "theme" if you will the topic of sex in Thailand, all the other stuff are add ons to make it easier to find the things needed to enjoy your holiday or stay or expat life in Thailand. It has grown, it has mutated, but it is not Thaivisa and will never be.

 

"i would not enjoy reading trip reports on some of the nastier areas i know of in some other asian countries"

 

Who is forcing you to?

 

"i would not want to be a member of an internet community that condones practises such as indentured or child prostitution,"

 

Neither would I. It's why I don't post on some boards and have quit others. Easy. I don't try to force them to change.It's their fucking board.

 

"for the sake of "sanuk" (whatever that could mean in such a context)."

 

Sanuk just means fun. It's an attitude. It's one reason a lot of people come here, to have some fun among people with like interests. They don't log on here to be harrassed, browbeat, berated, denigrated or to have to defend their every post against those with an agenda who are biased against their version of Sanuk and want to force them to not post what is allowable under the rules here.

 

JMO. Not an attack Fly, just my impressions and opinions. BTW Dog and I are good friends. We'll all have to meet for a beer or a coffee and a chat one day soon. A meet and a greet as we Yanks say.

 

 

Cent

[Guest]

Sometimes things come back to haunt us.

 

This happened with Linda Lovelace who starred in [color:"red"] Deep Throat [/color] and other X rated movies. When she finished her movies, she got religion - born again - and later got married. Later, she wrote a book called [color:"red"] Ordeal [/color] . In the book she claimed she was forced to have sex with various men and women. She also claims she made movies where she had oral, vaginal and anal sex with animals.

 

If you ever watched any of her movies, you would find it hard to believe she was forced to do anything but that is what she wrote. Now in our modern world of computers, etc. what somebody writes about Cambodia or Thailand may flame up the emotions but that does not necessary mean it is true.

 

As far as I can see, there is not much difference in the sex scene in Thailand as it is in Cambodia. The problem is that some have seen some of the shit going on in Thailand but very few have seen any of the shit going on in Cambodia. So how can one draw a conclusion based on what others have said?

 

As for prostitution in Thailand; if the woman has the right to choice if she has sex with a customer without repercussions I feel more comforable with that form of prostitution. But in Thailand, most if not all of the bars and brothels do not operate under that concept. Also, the women should not be made to work when they are having their period. This scam really is a big rip off to the customer who actually believes he is getting a lady who is not having her period.

[jitagawn]

I have not checked into this board for a while and wow this thread went haywire. I feel as if I should post up. When I read and then posted this I tried to be "fairly"neutral except to say that if one participates in these indentured situations its not so good for ones spirit IMHO.

I have been to Cambodia dozens of times to study that arena of artistic accomplishment that the KHmers are hugely famous for/ Their ancient Khmer Carving and Temples. I have a long and deep background and knowledge of this area. Amazingly enough that why I go there I have avoided the P$P scene there as it left me cold.Thats all .I just got a bad feeling for it and like Fly I have seen alot of evidence to support my opinion that slavery is prevasive there. It has lots of negative consequences-That how I feel.

 

Now,like so many others I am suspect about some of the NGOs.However many are well intended.I know a few. In fact a friend of mine works for the UNited Nations and is doing a study on enslaved sex workers and their drug addictions . She is a very lovely young Farang girl-Dangerous work indeed.But who to believe?Especially the media or the Ministry of Inferior as well(smile)So I thought the report disturbing for a variety of reasons.

But you know what?In the final anlysis my feeling inside is that its rampant there and hurts people Hard to conlude otherwise if one spends enough time there with your eyes and heart open.Thats all-Thats it.

 

Everyone make up their own mind.I would not for one second tell or suggest what others should do. Its their life.

[bibblies]

Tried to be neutral? What's this then? "IMHO patronage in these types of venues is truly eternal gam mai dee -(bad karma) ..." Do you actually believe the words of some lazy journalist? Haven't you ever read their usual types of reports on "exploitative" Nanaplaza et al and thought "What the fuck?! This isn't what I know!"?

 

Shit Spattered Dog - coolest name on the board and hardly posts at all but when he does it's quality.

 

Flyonzewall - you've listened to girls spin stories. I thought you'd been in Asia long enough to realise that girls tell the stories, good and bad, that they want... Yeah, it's worse than Thailand but, even in K11, the kiddies were in the small minority. You want to stop indentured prostitution? Go to Vietnam and tell their mums and dads they don't need that latest TV! By the way, last I heard, the famous Chinese-looking girl in a lot of Nigel's videos had become quite rich from her escapades and retired...

 

KS - kudos for standing up to the "I want to change nanaplaza.com AND football365.com AND microsoft.com AND everything in the world to be all about politics" brigade.

 

It's fucking Nanaplaza, boys! New Girl asking about where to find ladyboys who'll go with her and her boyfriend? That's what we're all about! Deal with it or go and hang out at I'mObsessedWithPolitics.com/I'mALonelyOldReformedWhoremongerWhoWantsToChatAboutCrap.com...

[Coss]

OK Fly,

 

"coss, former (and maybe still) regional forum moderator has alwasys refused any criticism on cambodia's prostitution scene. accusing anyone pointing out that indentured prostitution is endemic drew attacks."

 

In my time as a mod I was heavy on the cambo posts as they were the rules. And we got complaints from the pro and anti brigade. To suggest that I was only down on your or the anti brigade is not factual.

 

In another of your posts you complain that we have no reliable information other than your aged 1st hand experiences (4-5 years?) and those of Sex Tourists.

 

By implication you include me in the second group, I quite openly state, I have been to Cambodia on multiple occasions, I have enjoyed the company of many women, none of whom were in any way indentured. I know this, I am a good judge of character, and I don't condone under age or indentured prostitution.

 

To equate men who travel and indulge in P4P as condoning under age or indentured prostitution, is to agree with outfits like AFESIP.

 

Sensationalism is your stock and trade, without adult discussion, your arguments are seen as harrassment.

 

As a parallel, I relate a recent example of sensationalism on this subject. ECPAT in NZ hit the headlines with an assertion that a high percentage of hookers in NZ were underage. These figures were based on studies. I don't wish to discredit the studies, someone with a more scientific rigor may well be able to do that, but I deal with the numbers. The number of under age (16yrs) hookers in the study was estimated to be 145. OK 4.5 million people in NZ. So underage hookers = less than .0032 % of the population. No one says the problem doesn't exist, but the problem is obviously small. ECPAT meantime with inuendo and sensationlism is busy trying to convince society that men who use hookers are all screwing underage girls and that any man who uses a hooker is a paedophile. Very little blame is put on the broken marriages and drug addictions that give rise to these circumstances, a lot of attention is given to the customers and who they are.

 

You have to be prepared to allow that adults such as me, can travel to Cambodia or elsewhere and indulge in consensual - adult - P4P with members of the world's oldest profession.

 

To do otherwise is to put yourself in the intellectual camp of the Zealot.

 

Cheers

 

Coss