Teacher head batted by bar owner!

[Old Hippie]

"...What I find extremely weird and totally insane is that on message boards like this, when Thailand or some other 3rd world country is involved, you don't only have (speaking in general) the locals (and their laws, their police forces, their judicial systems etc) band together with their own regardless of Truth and Justice but also the "fellow" farangs (hey, it's them to categorize all of us as such) always ready to convince us that in the Land of Smile it's perfectly good and acceptable having (usually in the most cowardly and vile ways) skulls smashed, bones cracked or lives taken for exchanging words with a local..."

 

 

O.k. On the surface, yes, I might agee. But, all, as in 100% of the times (very few) I've seen violence in LOS, it has been caused by drunken and or ignorant farangs. Absolutely true in 100% of ALL cases in Thailand? No, absolutely not, of course. Just the ones I've seen to date. I'll also add, that I have seen a lot of violence between farangs as well, and some of those fights involved pool cues, bottles etc, in other words just as violent as the ones involving Thais.

 

Almost all the Thai on Farang violence I've seen was related to money. Picture a gauy who took a bottle of black label off the shelf in Yings bar in Asoke a few years back, didn't ask, didn't care, just took it...kept drinking, and was grab assing, and being an asshole. All the girls put up with him. Then he decided to leave with out paying. Now that bottle, and all his drinks is going to come out of someones pocket, maybe the bartenders, as she is in charge.

 

Now if you make 3-4000bht a month, and have to pay some assholes 1500++bht bar bill, you're going to be pissed as well. I'd be seriously pissed if someone cost me 1/3-1/2 a months salary and I couldn't pay my bills/feed my kids, lose my job etc...and I might be driven to violence as a way of settling it. Fortuneate for this guy, his friend, and I and another guy stepped in, and "convinced him" to pay. Had he not done so, he would have been in deep shit.

 

Other beatings I've seen involved honor or "face." I've seen a few farangs kick an ass kicking because they thought they could grab any woman's ass they wanted, even if she is with her husband or brother. If you're walking down the street, and some guy grabs your wife or sisteror mother's ass or tit, what are you going to do? Especially if he laughs in your face over it? Maybe he's bigger, tries to intimidate you...so you smash him hard, maybe use a weapon...hey, he wanted to play because he thought he had the advantage, rules change and now he's a victum? Nope sorry, doesn't work like that. Buy the ticket, take the ride.

 

As has been stated here, we don't know the facts, just going on our experiences. Day in day out, these (Thai) people take a lot of shit, and give us a lot of slack in dealing with our drunken rude, miserable asses. This particular incident or others like it, might have just been the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back...

 

"... pointing feet in the wrong direction and other such bullshit..."

 

Pointing feet in the wrong direction is a cultural taboo, usually they will just politely correct you. Disrespecting the King or Bhudda is a whole different matter, and is not bullshit. There are lines that can be crossed, and forgivness given, and lines you never cross. Cross the wrong line in the wrong country and you pay the consequences. Same in your country same in Mine. Best to not fuck around pissing people off anywhere. As I said, this is just my experience, certainly not true in 100% of all cases in LOS or anywhere...

[FIGJAM]

Old Hippie said:O.k. On the surface, yes, I might agee. But, all, as in 100% of the times (very few) I've seen violence in LOS, it has been caused by drunken and or ignorant farangs. [...] Best to not fuck around pissing people off anywhere.

Old Hippie, your post perfectly shows what I meant.

Your post is all but a long list of justifications, esplanations and excuses in defense of Thais.

 

The point which you fail to see is that 1st world western societies don't condone in any way violent physical reactions to non physical offences (and that is not even talking about when you actually are completely in the wrong) AND that you don't get any special sympathy or support from your fellow countrymen for attacking a foreigner (on the contrary you will often have to face an ADDITIONAL special charge just for that!).

 

In the Land of Smiles whose people, I am told on these message boards, are so friendly, loving, caring, peaceful, nice, Buddhist and forgiving sounds "a bit" strange to be told, at the same time, of running the risk to be maimhed or worse by these same wonderful people for infringing (without physically hurting anyone and often without even intention) some fucking "cultural taboo" not even coded in THEIR laws.

 

You, as a foreigner in a western country, can infringe as many "cultural taboos" as you want, can exchange words with anyone, can get drunk and try to not pay your bar tab and, as long as you don't physically hurt anyone, can count on the strongest public condemnation of anyone who sent you to an ICU with a fractured skull and internal bleedings just because of that.

You could also count on the support of the police and the laws and it should be remembered that one country's laws stem from its own culture and social values and the lack of laws (and the way those are enforced by the police force and the judicial system) in Thailand protecting its guests is quite telling of the "Land of Smiles" and its people...

[Old Hippie]

"...You could also count on the support of the police and the laws..."

 

No, not around here. We're on our own until the cops show up, IF they show up.

 

"...and it should be remembered that one country's laws stem from its own culture and social values and the lack of laws...""

 

Exactly my point. This is justice Thai style. And the style in a lot of places, so don't run a foul, and you needn't worry.

 

"...(and the way those are enforced by the police force and the judicial system) in Thailand protecting its guests is quite telling of the "Land of Smiles" and its people..."

 

Like I and others have said, we generally feel very safe here, and the violence we have seen has been provoked.

 

Hmmm, o.k. not sure how it goes in your neck of the woods, or the crowd you run with...but here (USA), guys do get their heads split open for monior infractions of "social norms" and few people will care. "Social norms" are all relevent.

 

Don't pay a bar bill in the USA? get in a bar tenders face? want to "disrespect" the wrong guy? O.k. fine, you might get away with it in a fancy place, they'll call the cops, and maybe the management will eat the loss,not the individual. Do it in a different place, a mom and pop place and the result might be different. I have seen many an ass kicking in the USA, where the cops didn't show up, and no one cared if blood was spilled or bones broken, as long as the ass kicker was in the right. It is viewed as the guy getting what was comming to him. Have also seen ass kickings where the cops did show up, and every one plays dumb "oh what officer? I didn't see it, I just got here..."

 

Have also seen times when no one will help because either "it isn't our business" or fear of getting killed, or "the guy has it comming, happens everywhere. If someone trys to steal 1/2 a months salary from me, or damage my business, I am going to react violently as well, depending on circumstances, the use of guns is allowed here...now that Is excessive to some, to most it isn't. Steal from me, or fuck with me, I'm going to hurt you, and hurt you bad. I will hurt you so bad that others will think 4 times before they try their luck. Most people I know will not help you, or feel sorry for you, and will defend me if need be. Same with most of my friends here. We handle or own problems, which oddly are very few.

 

Bottom line is, sometimes the only thing some guys understand is a serious skull crushing stomping, and it serves well as a reminder to others not to fuck with people.I have seen Thais get pushed around a lot, and take it. Sooner or later, a line gets crossed and the price has to be paid. I am not talking abouty a Thai getting drunk and going out looking for trouble, I am talking about drunken farangs crossing the line. All people have their breaking points.

 

We all know Thais are usually pretty cool until you push them to far. We read of the stories of how they rat pack and fight back. So, unless stupid, drunk or just unlucky, you shouldn't have any problems with them. I have seen them break up fights they thought weren't justified as well.

 

As I said, I am speaking from my own experience here, which does not cover all cases of course. but I will defend people I deem to be in the right.

[Guest lazyphil]

Some Sicilians (in Europe!) are hardly known for diplomacy and interest in the rule of law!

[Old Hippie]

yeah what is a 40kg girl supposed to do with a hugh guy who won't pay his bill and is going to cost her big time? By the time the cops show up, the drunk is gone...she has no choice but to lay down the lay fast and hard, as an example to others, but also, if shegoes easy on him, he can get up and fight, she goes hard first, he might think 2 times about it.

 

Saw a girl I know kick the shit out of a guy at her bar, no wat she was gonn lose that kind of money. A really sweet girl, but she got pushed way to far...100% justified...to us the money is small, to them, it might be 2+ weeks pay for them, money they cannot live without mix that with pride an woooo!

[FIGJAM]

lazyphil and Old Hippie, what I am saying is NOT that over here (here = the West) there are only peaceful, law abiding citizens.

I am saying that over here butchering people over verbal disagreement is in general socially totally unacceptable and taken extremely seriously by the public opinion, the police and the law.

In Thailand, far from being a safer place due to nicer people, life is infinetely cheaper.

[FIGJAM]

Old Hippie said:

yeah what is a 40kg girl supposed to do with a hugh guy who won't pay his bill and is going to cost her big time?

Obviously send him on life support, that goes without saying...

 

Saw a girl I know kick the shit out of a guy at her bar, no wat she was gonn lose that kind of money. A really sweet girl, but she got pushed way to far...100% justified...to us the money is small, to them, it might be 2+ weeks pay for them, money they cannot live without mix that with pride an woooo!

Yeah.. See that all the time in tourist spots here in Italy, sweeties who top their customers' heads because of fear of loosing some money (which they of course loose all the same after sending their customers to the hospital or to the morgue).

100% justified.

 

 

BTW, how can a non paying customer make you loose 2+ weeks pay?

And how can sending their customers (or what remains of them) in ICU make these wonderful, friendly, nice Buddhist people proud of themselves?

[FIGJAM]

lazyphil said:

Some Sicilians (in Europe!) are hardly known for diplomacy and interest in the rule of law!

Nor are some English hooligans, for that matter...

[cardinalblue]

This thread is turning into a similar thread we had a while back about the taxi driver who assulted his passengers, two drunk falangs, because they put their feet up on his seats, threw up inside his car? and just acted rude. obnoxious, etc..

 

The question comes down to does the physical violent reaction to bad behavior is an appropriate reaction..

 

At least in my western culture, I am taken back and quite surprised by what little things or even big things in LOS cause such an, i would deem, inappropriate reaction based on what transpired. But in thai culture, this seems to be a norm. So it might be fitting for thai society that this is an expected norm..

 

It is not like we in the West don't have inappropriate reaction to stimuli. Think about the whole thing of road rage and how that developed into a subject onto itself. It is a reflection of what is happening in that society at the time. What something starts out at shock, inappropriate behavior soon becomes accepted as a norm even in my mind it shouldn't be..

 

I don't want to get into a commentary between west and east but we have differences and similarities regarding violence and what causes it to happen. We have a tendency to fall back on the strength of our legal system/recourse and civil rights to protect us if not a tendency to believe that they decrease or deter violence. Look at the pros and cons of the death penalty in various states? In america, we have more people in jails and prisions standardized data than anywhere in the world. Is that because we have a more violent culture or do a better job of taking violent behavior off the street?

 

What i see in LOS is a very weak due process/legal system which forces people to take justice into their own hands and settle things as they see fit (right or wrong) with them knowing little consequences or big consequences might occur based on where one is in the socio-econ class ladder. I find thais very practical as to what actions they take becasue i do think they think about what consequences will or might happen to them and the chances of getting not just caught but actually punished for their misdeeds.

 

But then again, uneducated, ignorant and stupid behavior is all around us and we put ourselves in in those situations or not. Outside of random acts of violence, we create the opportunity for violence to happen but caught by surprise by the cultural reaction....

 

CB

[Old Hippie]

"...BTW, how can a non paying customer make you loose 2+ weeks pay?..."

 

Very simply, if you are familiar with how things work in LOS, especially in the nightlife/beer bar scene, then you'd know that the money the customer cheats, comes out of the girls salary. As I am sure you are aware, their salaries are often cut for all sorts of little infractions to work rules...such as show up 1 minute late, get docked for 30 minutes or 1 hour, shirt not ironed "properly" docked...etc...any money missing for drinks she served, she gets docked. If her salary is say 3000bht a month, and the punter runs up a bill of 500 Bht, that is almost a weeks pay. The example I stated from Ying's bar, involved a bottle of Johnny Walker Black lable which retails for 1200+ Bhat so almost 2 weeks salry, ++ all hs other unpaid for drinks...so probably over 2 weeks salary at that point. Keep in mind, she would be billed the bar's full sale price of the bottle, not the retail at Villa market price. She might lose her job over it as well. If she were to be docked, she may possible not have enough money to feed herself or her kids, or pay her bills. Make sense now?

 

"...And how can sending their customers (or what remains of them) in ICU make these wonderful, friendly, nice Buddhist people proud of themselves?..."

 

Simply put, They get the satisfaction of standing up for themselves. Put it western terms for a second, how does putting a guy in prison or jail or on probation for stealing from you, even the score? especially if you don't get your money/stuff back...? How does that make you feel about being a Christian in a peaceful church going Christian country? Shouldn't you just forgive them? The hypocracy you speak of exists in all countries. Put yourself in the situation I described above, of not being able to pay your bills or feed yourkids/yourself because some ass cost you 2 + weeks pay, and you have no money saved because you live pay check to paycheck on a low salary, and the person who did it, laughed right in your face about it... in that situation, you might get angry and violent, and want revenge even if it won't get you your money back. And you are from a peacful civilized Christian country are you not?

 

"...Yeah.. See that all the time in tourist spots here in Italy, sweeties who top their customers' heads because of fear of loosing some money (which they of course loose all the same after sending their customers to the hospital or to the morgue).

100% justified..."

 

Sarcasim noted. Now note my sarcasim. Glad you understand what I am talking about here and agree with me. Sarcasim over...why not answer the question? what is a small girl/guy supposed to do? some of these people are desparate for money, and can't take the hit financially, so what should they do? let the guy get away with it? hell, maybe 3 more will try it...I've seen farangs beat the shit out of other farangs over this shit, is that any better or any different?

 

I'll say it again, severe violence over stolen money or goods or servicesand or a severe loss of honor/violation of honor may well result in a justified severe ass kicking. Minor insults may not justify a serious ass kicking, case to case basis. For some, severe retribution is the only thing that teaches them not to do something...Not everyone in Thailand is a peaceful Bhudda loving kind of person, same as your counbtry and my country are not filled with peaceful forgiving countries. Again, for the most part Thais are pretty mellow and put up with a lot. They Generally only snap when provoked and they feel severely wronged by something...exceptions may exist. Again, only going by what I have experienced here. I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convice me. If you think Thais are dangerous and hypocrites, than stay home, or go some place else... Peace my brother, this isn't personnal.