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Stickman this week regarding violence .


jitagawn

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Guest lazyphil

I dont know Belgium but I highly doubt anywhere in Belgium is anywhere near as much of a basket case Bangkok is, Bangkok is a savage city, suger coated by A/C places like MBK and such things. I might add I've never experienced anything bad in BKK which proves nothing really, when I'm in bkk I'm staying in a guarded estate. Life is cheap in LOS, I started a thread about a small girl looking very dead in a busy highway with Benzos driving around her, I doubt this happens in Belgium?

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I do think publicity about violence against farangs (for example, the murders of two backpackers from the UK in Kanchanburi) does have an affect

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Let's remember these farangs were killed by a thai cop. If this is repeated a few times every year, any murderer, it will have repercussions, but how many cases like this one really happens to tourists?

 

. Some farang girl gets also raped, every other year before, maybe twice more now, I am sure some will not come because of that, in the hundreds maybe, but tourism numbers to affect stats, it would have to become a real problem where farangs are a new and regular target, and in places where they spend their vacation. IMO

 

we have a few people working in travel agencies on board,it would be interesting to see what they think is the treason for lesser tourist arrivals.

 

You ahve a point, though. hearing of violence in the south, even when foreigners are not targeted, is probably having more effect than the 2 backpackers. It has been on and on in the News, and for many people, now, south= tsunami, muslim violence, fear of resort beach being bombed.

 

 

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OldAH's post is sensible, but when it comes to the point of it resulting from an intrinsec character of the thais hating foreigners, sorry, that smells of the usual farang/resident rant heard since I ever laid foot in LOS. IMO, violence against farangs come from conditions totally outside thai characteristics.

 

the country has gone developping urbanly at a fast pace, and like any other society where urbanism dislocates social relations and disenfranchises the individual, who responds to the urban crush and alienation with violence, drug use, the same problems arise. These problems are everywhere now, save Bhutan maybe, and we have had them in US or France, my countries, for a good half century.

 

If I were to follow OAH's argument, i would then think thais have always hated thais, because the violence is mainly thai/thai, by a big margin.

 

If foreigners get attacked, it's because they're there too. Some of the nice values once attached to the whole fact of being thai have just collapsed, but that's for everyone to be victimized by it, thais and farangs.

 

heyhey, jus though of a poll.... ::

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pattaya127 said:

OldAH's post is sensible, but when it comes to the point of it resulting from an intrinsec character of the thais hating foreigners, sorry, that smells of the usual farang/resident rant heard since I ever laid foot in LOS.

Saying, as he has done, that on the whole, Thais have never liked us much seems to me way different than saying Thais hate foreigners, as you do.

Now, tell me that Thailand is a country open and willing to integrate foreigners into its social texture...

On the whole, I find them rather xenophobic. They are institutionally taught to be so (compare that to the efforts and the laws in West to fight xenophobia and discriminations) and the current leading party (voted in twice by, guess who, the Thais) is based on, has played on and has exacerbated such underlaying xenophobia (already forgot Toxin's memorable "I don't trust white skinned people" in one of his new year's speeches?).

 

IMO, violence against farangs come from conditions totally outside thai characteristics.

And IMO you are totally wrong here. The very xenophobia (which means nothing else that fear of strangers) I was talking about above "protected" us so far (as OldAsiaHand has perfectly described) from what Thais have always been doing to other Thais (this was my main point in the other thread about the violence in Thai society!). It seems the (socio-political-economic) situation is rapidly changing and we are suddenly finding ourselves even more exposed than the lowest class Thais to violence of any kind (gratuitous or to gain whatever profit).

 

the country has gone developping urbanly at a fast pace, and like any other society where urbanism dislocates social relations and disenfranchises the individual, who responds to the urban crush and alienation with violence, drug use, the same problems arise.

Sorry, Thailand has never been the paradise that the daydreamers here believe it is.

I've spent only 3 years there but from all the accounts I have heard from the elderly, it has always been the violent society that I have come to know.

Urban violence is growing has urbanizazion goes on, as it has always done everywhere (as you say) but the vast majority of the country and the population is still rural and that environment is no less violent than the urban one. There are just slightly different "kinds of violence".

 

If foreigners get attacked, it's because they're there too. Some of the nice values once attached to the whole fact of being thai have just collapsed, but that's for everyone to be victimized by it, thais and farangs.

Sorry but those "nice values" coming with being Thai have never existed, IMO...

In Thailand what it counts it's not being Thai but what "kind" of Thai you are, ie your status/wealth/connections...

 

Crime, violence, racism etc etc etc have always existed and still exist everywhere, the striking difference between "farang" 1st world societies and practically all the rest of the world is what happens to you average Joe when the proverbial shit hits the fan and the fun dealing with police, laws, judicial system and public's perception (those "nice values") begins...

 

Funny you mention Bhutan in your post, to get the police interested in the literal slaughter of that Bhutanese foreign student (which they saw "live") it took the heavy involvement of the Buthanese embassy. And there still are people around who think this story is a hoax since they haven't seen any report in the press.

See what I mean?

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@lazyphil

 

I never had a single problem in Belgium nor in Thailand, the only violence I faced in my life was in rwanda in 1994.....

 

I am not going to compare crime statistics but I never had a problem in Bangkok at 4am as in comparison I would not venture alone in my city streets at 4-5 am.

 

Now I could admit that BKK is far more dangerous and deadly....

for thais.

 

Anyway comparing crime rate is not very wise as my city accounts for 200k inhabitants at a maximum and BKK has 10millions+.

I will not enter a discussion about wether the thai culture is a more "violent" than ours, I would answer mind your own business in this case.

(By the way, some board members who have nothing to teach to the thai about violent behavior....)

 

Anyway, always be cautious wherever you are/live and if something wrong happens to you then no luck......

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PartOfTheProblem:

I don't read Gor very often. He is a good read. Very timely citation here!

 

Khun Kong:

You are applying western characteristics and value to Asia when you say:

 

"One of our tenth grade students was beaten soundly ... Some bruises and stitches given by the brave gang that set on him...but it was no one-on-one."

 

As stated before, Thai (and asia in general)is a group culture. Identity is a lot more group focused than individual.

 

<<burp>>

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on the whole, Thais have never liked us much

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Ok, i just say "hate" to be shorter, meant his sentence anyway. If they liked us so little, why do they copy our ways, ie. so enamored with things from the west? Just look around you, indusrialization, urbanism, consumerism, is all tending to do it the western way, and acquire western things. Look at the ads on TV, on papers, why the luk krung look is the most used to sell something?

 

On the whole, I find them rather xenophobic.

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hwo do you experience this xenophobia, personally, in your daily life? i am curious. to me, that is where it counts, and not laws that prevent you to buy this or that, these come from a bureaucracy, not a population. So, tell me what this, that, these thais you meet on a daily basis, did to you so you feel so unwelcome.

 

 

Thai identity is strong and there is much insularity in their thinking, but if you live in Thailand, you know the crux of their xenophobism is directed at cambodians, vietnamese, burmese, to a measure we westerners don't compare with.

 

On the whole, i find them rather welcoming, while knowing they will always welcome me as a tourist, an outsider to their culture, save a few instances.

 

For residents married to thais, I wonder if they feel a strong xenophoby from the family of the wife. I hope they tell us. Not saying there might not be so smirk, and stuff said behind our back, but xenophobia is something very active, something that makes you feel, I repeat, unwelcome. Otherwise, it's called prejudice.

 

toxin

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who cares about Thaksin and his bureaucrats. Any leader, while promising riches, can in any nation, sound the horns of them against us.

Total hypocrisy, the guy was educated in the west, his goals for thailand are western goals. And wihtout the west, Thailand would fare a bit better than his neighbours, but not much. the country has always aligned itself with the west, and principally, the USA. Strange xenophobia.

 

 

you:

And IMO you are totally wrong here. The very xenophobia (which means nothing else that fear of strangers) I was talking about above "protected" us so far (as OldAsiaHand has perfectly described) from what Thais have always been doing to other Thais (this was my main point in the other thread about the violence in Thai society!). It seems the (socio-political-economic) situation is rapidly changing and we are suddenly finding ourselves even more exposed than the lowest class Thais to violence of any kind (gratuitous or to gain whatever profit).

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how can i be wrong? you say it yourself, the socio-political-economic situation is rapidly changing. where, in the rice fields, in the temples? No, from fast-paced urbanization.

 

 

I've spent only 3 years there but from all the accounts I have heard from the elderly, it has always been the violent society that I have come to know.... but the vast majority of the country and the population is still rural and that environment is no less violent than the urban one. There are just slightly different "kinds of violence".

 

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never said the contrary, just kept to the argument of new violence, that makes farangs a target.

 

 

In Thailand what it counts it's not being Thai but what "kind" of Thai you are, ie your status/wealth/connections...

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that's good for just about every 3rd world country, still, they are not called Thailand, all of them. I do not know how extensive is you reach into thai society, culture, how much time you spent around different kind of thais, but what you say does not prevent a much richer cultural tapestry, more complex set of relations between individuals that makes Thailand Thailand and not Zambia or Nepal, ie. not just a corrupted, top down, and violent country, however that may be.

 

I say, do not reduce Thailand to what you think it is. You do that for your own convenience, all boxed in, maybe in defense of a place that will always make you feel like an outsider, but to me, that's very limited, and reactive kind of view to put on a country and its culture.

I prefer to keep being curious and interested, recognize changes for the worse, admit profound inequalities, be offended by the violence against individuals, but also the instances of selfless behaviour and kindness, and the incredible gift of enjoying another culture, another place, so far from my own, but that, unmistakably, provoked and still provoke a sense of being exactly where i want to be, not just when I am there, but every instant of my life. I owe Thailand for this. My life is very much before thailand and after thailand. And from where i stand, it doesn't look bad, and i believe many feel like this here.

 

A country that you see only based on status and wealth doesn't do that to people. we'd flee it, and i wonder why you are staying if it has no redeeming values. Are you forced? Or making a lot of money, then bye-bye?

 

Last: Remember that life is lived despite..., not thanks to....Which is pretty much why the vast majority of thais rather enjoy what little they have, instead of crying about wealth, status and whatnot. A great lesson for us who can on top make our life what we want it to be, a lot more than the common thai.

 

When you start seeing this, I believe you may add up a few more insights to wealth/status and connections.

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MisterBlonde said:

Sitting in a beer bar recently and two flower girls were battling for my patronage....the Thai girl pointed at her rival and said " take no notice of her,she is only vietnamese" i felt quite sad at that and put a downer on the night...such racism and so young.

 

the rivalvry between Thais and Vietnamese has unfortunately a long history.

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Mentors said:
MisterBlonde said:

Sitting in a beer bar recently and two flower girls were battling for my patronage....the Thai girl pointed at her rival and said " take no notice of her,she is only vietnamese" i felt quite sad at that and put a downer on the night...such racism and so young.

 

the rivalvry between Thais and Vietnamese has unfortunately a long history.

So, what does that exactly mean?

 

And what are the explanations for the Thais' attitude towards just about everyone else like the Burmese, the Laotians and the Cambodians?

Thanks to help.

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