Jump to content

Stickman this week regarding violence .


jitagawn

Recommended Posts

pattaya127 said:Ok, i just say "hate" to be shorter

OK but careful, it's akin to shorten "I've been wounded" in "I've been killed".. :)

 

meant his sentence anyway. If they liked us so little, why do they copy our ways, ie. so enamored with things from the west? Just look around you, indusrialization, urbanism, consumerism, is all tending to do it the western way, and acquire western things.

You said it by yourself, they like "things from the west" NOT westerners.

P127, they (especially the youngsters) also like and copy "things from Japan".

 

How much do you think they like the Japanese?

 

Look at the ads on TV, on papers, why the luk krung look is the most used to sell something?

'Cause they like their looks, it's just (many of) the farangs that find short dark skinned people so "beautiful"....

 

I don't see luk-k'ns having much success in the Thai society other than in the entertainment biz.

 

hwo do you experience this xenophobia, personally, in your daily life? i am curious. [...] So, tell me what this, that, these thais you meet on a daily basis, did to you so you feel so unwelcome.

What about, for a start, feeling constantly threatened by Thai boys, hanging around in Thai areas with Thai girls?

Try as a lone early twenty white boy dating girls your age and frequenting young hang-outs in middle sized Isaan towns and report here.

The prettier your girl, the bigger your troubles, guaranteed.

 

Taxi driver gangs mocking odd and bad assorted couples of punters and their obvious (and mostly undesiderable to the average Thai) hookers in tourist spots is a complete different thing than seeing a pretty and desiderable girl choosing _in_a_Thai_environment_ a white boy (who is not in any evident way so phisically unattractive nor is displaying any particular wealth, as a "justification") over the local boys.

Just to be clear, "money" doesn't enter into the equation here and I were paying and buying what they were paying and buying. For both me and them "hitting the town" with a date is usually pretty more costly than a visit to the local brothels (a couple of hundred baht at best).

 

to me, that is where it counts, and not laws that prevent you to buy this or that, these come from a bureaucracy, not a population.

And where does the bureaucracy come from?

Sorry but this is the usual BS of the population and the ruling class being two totally opposed things as if (so silly especially in democracies or pseudo-democracies like LOS) the ones who rule the country come from Mars and not from the exact same country and society as the people they rule...

 

Give real money and real power to whichever class of Thais you want and you will have the typical corrupt, bossy and snotty "puyai"...

 

IME the ruling classes mirror, the world over, the societies they rule and they come from.

 

Thai identity is strong and there is much insularity in their thinking, but if you live in Thailand, you know the crux of their xenophobism is directed at cambodians, vietnamese, burmese, to a measure we westerners don't compare with.

Are you saying that you too agree that Thais are IN FACT xenophobic and racist (although you say "just" towards Cambodians, Vietnamese and Burmese as if that was a redeeming feauture)?

 

So, where is the disagreement?

In the fact that we score better than Cambodians, Vietnamese and Burmese?!?

 

On the whole, i find them rather welcoming, while knowing they will always welcome me as a tourist, an outsider to their culture, save a few instances.

 

For residents married to thais, I wonder if they feel a strong xenophoby from the family of the wife. I hope they tell us. Not saying there might not be so smirk, and stuff said behind our back, but xenophobia is something very active, something that makes you feel, I repeat, unwelcome. Otherwise, it's called prejudice.

You yourself admit to feeling welcome just as a tourist, an outsider to their culture.

So, how do you image the situation for people who reside there, work there, are married there, have half-Thai children and are still some sort of "tourists", outsiders to their culture?

 

who cares about Thaksin and his bureaucrats. Any leader, while promising riches, can in any nation, sound the horns of them against us.

Total hypocrisy, the guy was educated in the west, his goals for thailand are western goals. And wihtout the west, Thailand would fare a bit better than his neighbours, but not much. the country has always aligned itself with the west, and principally, the USA. Strange xenophobia.

No P127, there are "horns" that western leaders can't sound and hope to conserve their seats.

 

I have yet to hear Bush or Blair (or Shroeder, de Villepin, Berlusconi, Zapatero ...) clearly and openly telling in a unified TV speech to the nation to beware of brown skinned (or Arab looking) folks and to blame on a particular breed of foreigners all the evils of the country...

 

And the guy WASN'T educated in the West, he just got his degree in a US uni (I wonder how given his command of the English language).

 

And the only "western goals" of Thailand are to get the material "things" the West has, its economic might, its power, its prestige.

I don't see them aspiring to copy and spread into their society out ideals, values and principles.

 

Look at the example of a first world Asian country like Japan, a gaijin is an outsider STILL prevented by their laws and their society to truly integrate into itself.

A foreigner residing there, working there, married there and with half-Japanese children won't never become a freaking Japanese citizen.

 

how can i be wrong? you say it yourself, the socio-political-economic situation is rapidly changing. where, in the rice fields, in the temples? No, from fast-paced urbanization.

I was replying to IMO, violence against farangs come from conditions totally outside thai characteristics

 

never said the contrary, just kept to the argument of new violence, that makes farangs a target.

Farangs are becoming a target everywhere.

In the remotest countryside probably they are still a more likely target of violence from people they know to gain a profit than gratuitous violence from people they don't know. But the situation is rapidly changing as the whole society (NOT ONLY IN BKK) is rapidly changing.

 

I have personally known of two cases involving two old farang residents in two very small villages in two different parts of Isaan.

They both were pretty old, living in LOS from years and married to locals living in their villages.

At some point they became worthless to their Thai "family" or worth more dead than alive (in one of those two cases). One of them was run over in the backyard of his house, the other one was "forgotten" with his wheelchair under the sun on an open field.

Both cases weren't investigated and none of them figure as murder in those nice Thai police statistics that june11 loves so much.

All of the villagers and their dogs perfectly know what had happened, none of them has done or said anything (some of them have discretely gossiped about it...). Nice.

 

 

 

In Thailand what it counts it's not being Thai but what "kind" of Thai you are, ie your status/wealth/connections...

-----------------------------------------------

that's good for just about every 3rd world country, still, they are not called Thailand, all of them. I do not know how extensive is you reach into thai society, culture, how much time you spent around different kind of thais, but what you say does not prevent a much richer cultural tapestry, more complex set of relations between individuals that makes Thailand Thailand and not Zambia or Nepal, ie. not just a corrupted, top down, and violent country, however that may be.

Oh but I will say more, that's true for just about everywhere in this world.

What makes Thailand Thailand, Zambia Zambia and France France are the damned different shades of gray.

This seems to be the single most difficult concept to grasp for the folks on these message boards...

 

I say, do not reduce Thailand to what you think it is. You do that for your own convenience, all boxed in, maybe in defense of a place that will always make you feel like an outsider, but to me, that's very limited, and reactive kind of view to put on a country and its culture.

I prefer to keep being curious and interested, recognize changes for the worse, admit profound inequalities, be offended by the violence against individuals, but also the instances of selfless behaviour and kindness, and the incredible gift of enjoying another culture, another place, so far from my own, but that, unmistakably, provoked and still provoke a sense of being exactly where i want to be, not just when I am there, but every instant of my life. I owe Thailand for this. My life is very much before thailand and after thailand. And from where i stand, it doesn't look bad, and i believe many feel like this here.

Oh but that's almost how I feel now that I'm not living there (it seems you are not doing it either...) and given up the very idea of a true complete life in the LOS and revert to consider it a great whoring/boozing holiday playground...

 

A country that you see only based on status and wealth doesn't do that to people. we'd flee it,

If you are amongst the ones who benefit from their relative status and wealth IT DOES EXACTLY THAT to people. ::

Try coming back as a Burmese, a Cambodian or a Laotian and let's see what Thailand and Thais "do" to you...

 

and i wonder why you are staying if it has no redeeming values. Are you forced? Or making a lot of money, then bye-bye?

I left.

Read one of my replies to suadum in the "Teacher head batted by bar owner!" thread for a bit of background info on my experience in LOS.

 

Last: Remember that life is lived despite..., not thanks to....Which is pretty much why the vast majority of thais rather enjoy what little they have, instead of crying about wealth, status and whatnot. A great lesson for us who can on top make our life what we want it to be, a lot more than the common thai.

 

When you start seeing this, I believe you may add up a few more insights to wealth/status and connections.

Thanks, I perfectly see it. I and the richer Thais are actually EXPLOITING it to make the most from our stay in Thailand :)

Were looking for a "redeeming feature"? Here is one of the biggest ones!

Too bad it just helps us higher status/wealth folks screw the bulk of them and keep them the despised subjects of the ruling class who, I assure you, have very little of that "enjoy the little we have" attitude...

 

Things are changing and unfortunately we, being relatively wealthy but of much lower status than the ones with real status at all, are the first in the line of fire of the increasingly angry and demanding Thai people. Much before the ones truly responsible for the situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 426
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I know many look krung off spring that are ostracized from notmal Thia society becasue they ar enot pure Thai

 

Also there was the lady Thai cab driver I had last month or so who stated to me in her central dialect that Khon Issan are not Thai,not polite basically underlings- In general the world over people are rascist-I find the Thais extremely rascist as well...

Bu tno problem really for me as I select my friends accordingly.

I still like them and take them for what they are. :) :) :)

 

This is all really old ground :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And what are the explanations for the Thais' attitude towards just about everyone else like the Burmese, the Laotians and the Cambodians?

Thanks to help.

----------------------

these guys have a long history of invading and enslaving each other, after centuries, and learning in school it tends to stick in the mind. I thought, reading you, you had some insight about this, from your knowledge of schools xenophobic programs .. ::

 

PS:Thanks for replying my long answer to you. Will read and reply after work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I can say about this whole thread is that, as a foreigner in Bangkok, I'm afraid I wouldn't have quite the street smarts I'd have in my home country. Here in the USA it's pretty easy to stay out of harms way if you just pay attention. Stay out of bad neighborhoods, be on the lookout for troublemakers, etc. I've had a lifetime of experience. But put me in a new country, and I'd be like a fish out of water. I sure I wouldn't undeerstand all the nuances.

 

Rex

Link to comment
Share on other sites

pattaya127 said:these guys have a long history of invading and enslaving each other, after centuries,

You mean... like the Vietnamese? :)

 

and learning in school it tends to stick in the mind. I thought, reading you, you had some insight about this, from your knowledge of schools xenophobic programs .. ::

And wasn't this my point talking about how They are institutionally taught to be so (compare that to the efforts and the laws in West to fight xenophobia and discriminations)?

 

Until as recently as 60 years ago we in Europe were doing exactly the same, invading and killing each other, and have done so "for centuries" (let's cut the BS and just say that's pretty much what has always been happening everywhere through the entire history of the human kind and Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar have nothing special to show in this regard).

 

Now on my (and your) passport and the money I use everyday there is the European Union logo and my city hall flies the EU flag while Thais, I am told, are justified to treat their neighborhood like shit (and Cambodians to burn Thai embassies etc etc etc) because of events which mostly took place in a much farther past and which, nowadays, have roots more in the realm of the myth than in that of the reality...

 

And while I hope that makes you realize how pathetic and worthless is this defense of Thai attitudes and behaviours towards their neighborhood, I notice how their attitude towards all the others (and the huge disciminations within their own society) seems to remain unaddressed...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Figjam> "Until as recently as 60 years ago we in Europe were doing exactly the same, invading and killing each other, and have done so "for centuries" (let's cut the BS and just say that's pretty much what has always been happening everywhere through the entire history of the human kind and Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar have nothing special to show in this regard)."

 

 

PR> Amen. General George S. Patton, Jr. said sixty years ago - "Perpetual peace is a futile dream."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will tourism be adversely affected by current trends?

-------------------------------

I doubt it. the vast number of tourists is hardly staying in big metropolis like BKK and there or anywhere else rarely outside of normal tourist sights, including nightlife. So i do not think any of us are really affected by the raise in violence, truly.

Speaking as a bone fide tourist with a pretty decent income who resides in Hong Kong with plenty of friends that used to like to visit Thailand - and not bothering to check for any statistics (I doubt there is anything useful) - I can tell you it most definitely does. But not only the violence.

 

All of the changes that started in about 2001 have gradually, over the years, reduced our appetite for visiting Thailand. I don't speak for everyone, and I don't even claim to speak for all single male affluent ex-pats in Hong Kong, but I can speak for myself and my fairly largely group of friends. We simply don't visit Thailand as much. There are other options; maybe slightly, or not so slightly, more expensive, but we are willing to pay the price.

 

And it really is not just the violence. There is a whole litany of issues, such as the indignity of urine tests, the obvious xenophobic attitude that has grown in the last several years, the early closings and the whole nanny state (albeit a corrupt one, which we find amusing over here) have contributed to this. Bar owners and other visitors can complain all they want about our attitudes and where we choose to holiday on long weekends, but until Thailand changes, our habits are not going to change. It is that simple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And wasn't this my point talking about how They are institutionally taught to be so (compare that to the efforts and the laws in West to fight xenophobia and discriminations)?

 

Until as recently as 60 years ago we in Europe were doing exactly the same, invading and killing each other, and have done so "for centuries" (let's cut the BS and just say that's pretty much what has always been happening everywhere through the entire history of the human kind and Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar have nothing special to show in this regard).

 

Now on my (and your) passport and the money I use everyday there is the European Union logo and my city hall flies the EU flag while Thais, I am told, are justified to treat their neighborhood like shit (and Cambodians to burn Thai embassies etc etc etc) because of events which mostly took place in a much farther past and which, nowadays, have roots more in the realm of the myth than in that of the reality...

 

And while I hope that makes you realize how pathetic and worthless is this defense of Thai attitudes and behaviours towards their neighborhood, I notice how their attitude towards all the others (and the huge disciminations within their own society) seems to remain unaddressed...

Excellent point. We from Western countries need to be less hesitant to call things for what they are. We are certainly not doing anyone favors when we deny that a country's leader is a thug (e.g., Mugabe comes to mind) when he is a thug.

 

We seem to be quite willing to criticize each other (because its "pc"), but much too willing to ignore dishonesty, corruption, xenophobia and plain old thuggish behavior in less developed countries when we see it. We certainly are not doing Thailand or Thais any favors when we bend over backwards to ignore these problems.

 

I don't have a EU logo on my passport; I am an American. I certainly do not agree with many of the policies of our current government, and I have no problems with people in other countries critcizing the policies of the U.S., even those I agree with. I think it is healthy, even when I strongly disagree with the criticism.

 

The problem here in Thailand is that any criticism of official policy is considered anti-Thai. If you don't have Thai nationality, you are a "guest" (after over tens years and millions of Baht paid in taxes?) and have "no right" to call things for what are; it's impolite. And criticism by a Thai is even worse because it is ?unpatriotic?.

 

We are not doing Thailand any favors when we buy into this nonsense or try to explain it away. We only make a bad situation worse by legitimizing the cynical manipulation of nationalist sentiments by vested and corrupt local interests. Far better that we honestly call things for what they are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I have mixed and not overalarmist opinion about the current situation in BKK's streets I just second everything that was said by Gadfly and Figjam in the above post. Really disturbed by the institutionnalised hammering of nationalistic values in Thailand

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...