Guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 In LOS, you know the rules ahead of time. The penalty is harsh. If you still do it and get caught, you know the rules. Unfortunately I stil don't. I think it is something like a kilo of heroin before they will sentence you to death but I would really like to know about the amount of yaa ba you would need to have before the same sentence is passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 "This is a complicated issue and someone once said you can judge a country by how it treats its criminals. Personally, I'm for the death penalty in principle. I do respectfully disagree with Warlock30 about not caring what other countries do. For instance, the Peoples Republic of China, forces slave labor on their 'criminals'. Some of whom are political prisoners and citizens who want to practice freedom of religion like being a Christian. Would be opposed to those people being arrested and executed? Since its their country and they can do what they want with their criminals?" chocolat steve - Communist China is not a Democracy. It's citizens have no say in the laws of the land. It doesn't particularly bother me if the EU or any other nation/organization wishes to pressure totalitarian regimes on human rights. Thailand on the other hand has leaders elected by her citizens. The EU has no business preaching it's left wing notions on the Death Penalty to democratic nations. When the Thai's want or are ready to abolish Capital Punishment they can elect a ruling party that will do so. A previous poster pointed out that as an American I am about the last person that should complain about nations preaching to other countries. I agree. I generally don't support it when America does it either. I don't care what the European stance is on abortion, the death penalty, drug laws, etc, etc... If I had it my way America would be more concerned with its own backyard rather than whine about Europe's (or anyone else's) social policy. The main point is, at this time Thailand has a democracy (however shaky it may be) and it's leaders are elected by her citizens. The EU should mind its own business and let Thailand handle its criminal justice system any way it wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALHOLK Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 Hi! quote: The EU should mind its own business Agree. And so should the Americans - in their own country. They should also pay their dues to the UN without any conditions or be suspended and have the UN head quarters removed from NY. regards ALHOLK P.S. The EU already has a much larger population than the US and in a forseable future it will also have a larger economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 Hi ALHOLK, "Agree. And so should the Americans - in their own country. They should also pay their dues to the UN without any conditions or be suspended and have the UN head quarters removed from NY." HA! Nothing would make me happier than to see the US pull out of the UN. I long for the day the US is suspended or walks out of the United Nations. Further, I would be delighted were the UN Headquarters to close up shop and slink out of New York. But alas it won't happen (anytime soon), if the US left the UN it would be an even more worthless organization than it is today - left with less credibility than it has now (and more than 22% less money to operate). But I can dream. "P.S. The EU already has a much larger population than the US and in a forseable future it will also have a larger economy." Yes, but it is decidedly anti-freemarket. The EU may be able to prop up struggling West European style "nanny state" socialist economies for the forseeable future - but in the end, pro business market oriented nations/organizations will always be more competetive and will dominate. The EU may think that is barbaric, but such is life. My original point was that all Democracies have a right to run their nations anyway they chose (for better or worse) without blatant interference from outide nations (including the US), organizations and PC agitators. So long as Thai's are able to elect their own leaders they are more than entitled to execute their drug dealers (or anyone else they deem worthy of that punishment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALHOLK Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 Hi Warlock30! quote: Yes, but it is decidedly anti-freemarket. Sadly you are not entirely wrong here and it will continue to be that way until the French farmers find out that there are more advanced farming implements than pointed sticks. As I said before I agree on that all countries should be run exclusevly by their own people but this does not necessarily exclude other countries from exprssing their opinions. regards ALHOLK [ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: ALHOLK ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 Well, first of all, thanks Warlock30 for clarification on your statement that its only democracies. Being limited to those governments only, I will agree in principle but not totally. Even democracies have been known to perform what I what I may deem bordering on humanitarian crimes but that is just my opinion since I alone can only define what a 'crime' is. I think the U.S. should pay its financial obligations to the U.N. Possibly leave it also. The U.S. constitution comes in conflicts with some U.N. military/peace keeping efforts because it can leave U.S. troops under the command of non American commanders. A soldier sucessfully challenged that I believe or at least tried to. I totally agree America does way too much preaching and interceding in other countries. The Monroe Doctrine (1800s), phrases like the World's policeman (during the Teddy Roosevelt era) and the Leader of free world (elder Bush era) are arrogant. Might makes right I guess. America should be equal amongst all countries and not see itself as any sort of leader of other nations. Biggest economy--yes, biggest army---yes, so what? It gives us no moral right to be leader of anything but ourselves. I'm not an isolationist but we have no right telling other folks what they can and can't do. Its been hyprocritical at times like having Jim Crow and protesting Nazi Germany who were doing the same thing on a higher level. Also, getting involved militarily and economically in Bosnia for genocidal/humanitarian reasons but staying out of Rwanda and seeing 800,000 butchered. Now the E.U., it may have more people but its weakness lies in its vast diversity and nationalism of each country. Maybe a generation or two from now as borders seem more meaningless and linguistic and cultural differences cease they'll be powerful but not now and in the forseeable future. Isn't the E.U. one of the signs of the apocolypse in Revelations (10 horned creature, each a nation)? Just joking...partly! The E.U. share a common disdain for America. They can all agree on denying American mergers so they'll be able to compete but eventually internal strife will get the best of them. The E.U. won't be able to compete with the U.S. till the workers, trade unions, etc. give up their 6 week holidays and learn to put in a full days work so they can compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 Hi chocolat steve, "Well, first of all, thanks Warlock30 for clarification on your statement that its only democracies. Being limited to those governments only, I will agree in principle but not totally. Even democracies have been known to perform what I what I may deem bordering on humanitarian crimes but that is just my opinion since I alone can only define what a 'crime' is." We are pretty close to agreement here. And you are correct, sometimes Democratic nations can do monstrous things. However, I don't think a nation chosing to execute its criminals rises anywhere near that level. Good point though. "I think the U.S. should pay its financial obligations to the U.N. Possibly leave it also." Agreed. As long as the US wishes to remain in the UN it should pay the UN dues it has agreed to pay. Though, a strong case can be made that UN became much more streamlined because the US withheld funds until they got their act together (somewhat together that is). "America should be equal amongst all countries and not see itself as any sort of leader of other nations. Biggest economy--yes, biggest army---yes, so what? It gives us no moral right to be leader of anything but ourselves." Yup. For the most part I agree with you here as well. Though many nations throughout the world depend on the US for military and economic support. When any country takes large amounts of support from another it opens itself up to pressure and influence from whomever its source of funds or defense comes from. Infact, this is the primary excuse the US uses to poke its nose in other nations business. For example, if the EU were providing billions of dollars of support to Thailand, it could be argued that the EU would be able to condition that support on Thailand abolishing the death penalty. So it is a very complicated issue as you well know. But in principle, I think the US, EU and UN should mind their own business unless a particularly grevious situation arises. Unfortunantly...that ain't gonna happen. "Also, getting involved militarily and economically in Bosnia for genocidal/humanitarian reasons but staying out of Rwanda and seeing 800,000 butchered." Well, while you make an interesting point, I would disagree here. The US/NATO should only get militarily involved when the national security of America or NATO member states are at issue (as defined by the treaty). Though I tend to disagree, it could be argued that the civil war in Bosnia/Kosovo was a national security threat to some or all NATO member states. I can't think of any national security concerns present in Rawanda. Infact, I hate to say it but Africa is largely a lost cause at the moment (some of this is the fault of both the US and the Old Soviet Union). Hopefully in the future things will improve on that continent. I agree with pretty much everything you had to say about the EU. Very good points all. I especially like (and totally agree with) your following statement: "The E.U. won't be able to compete with the U.S. till the workers, trade unions, etc. give up their 6 week holidays and learn to put in a full days work so they can compete." Bingo! And that is not only not going to happen soon, it will get worse. Unlike in the US, the Socialist mindset has really taken hold in Europe. It can be argued that it is a fairer more humane system, but in the end it doesn't much matter. As long as powerful market economies exist (the US and other free market blocs), the EU will not be able to seriously compete. The EU will be dominated and forced to either change or eventually crumble. Well, at this point I think we are no longer discussing anything even remotely Thailand related, but it has been an interesting discussion. Probably best to move on to subjects that this board is designed for, but if I ever run into you in BKK I will be glad to buy you a couple beers! Warlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 Hi ALHOLK, "Sadly you are not entirely wrong here and it will continue to be that way until the French farmers find out that there are more advanced farming implements than pointed sticks." I think the operative phrase is `it will continue to be that way`. I don't see anything changing with the EU. Besides, I thought those pointy sticks were the backbone of France's national defense? Hehehehe. Take care, Warlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALHOLK Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 Hi! chocolat steve quote: The E.U. won't be able to compete with the U.S. till the workers, trade unions, etc. give up their 6 week holidays Guess where I spend most of those six weeks. Qulity of life isn't always proportional to the paycheck. Warlock30 quote: I think the operative phrase is `it will continue to be that way`. I don't see anything changing with the EU. It will be a long and difficult process but it will change. We simply can't afford to maintain status quo after the eastern european nations are integrated into the EU. I don't how much you know about the EU's agricultural policy but I can assure you that it is way beyond pathetic. quote: Besides, I thought those pointy sticks were the backbone of France's national defense? This is very efficient. Think about it. If the US air force scraped it's bases and landed on farmland they would save money. Also the farmers would save money by not having to buy plows. regards ALHOLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 7, 2001 Report Share Posted September 7, 2001 Well, Warlock, I think we do basically agree and even if I didn't I'd still buy you a drink. Religion and politics are 2 subjects I don't take personal at all. As stated in my first post on this subject I'm for the death penalty. Good point on Bosnia arguably being a NATO security issue. Genocide and humanitarian reasons were cited alongside security reasons for the deployment of troops. Genocide by itself seems NOT to be reason enough to get involved in Rwanda. Personally, I would not have gotten involved in Rwanda, it was just the hypocracy of using the term 'genocide' to get involved in Bosnia while the same or worse was happening elsewhere. Although, sadly, I think large parts of sub-saharan Africa is a lost cause until they remove corruption and tribalism and alter cultural philosophies which exaserbate the AIDS issue. But to get back to the original point. Yes, Thailand can kill drug dealers. Since in theory, the citizens all agreed (via their elected representatives) and have a choice to end it if they wish through their votes. I still say the way to world peace is to have the leaders of the warring factions spend some time together bar fining lovelies in LOS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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