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Another Sin Sot debate...


Old Hippie

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After Thai class yesterday, I was sitting around with a few students and teachers, and the topic of Sin Sot came up. Never one to keep my opinions secret, I said I would never pay it, that I considered it an insult, and an attempted "shake down."

 

Now a few older Thai men agreed with me, and said they felt it was out dated, and was unfair, especially to farangs, as farangs would most likely be asked for far more than a Thai man would be asked for. A few older guys said a token amount for show was o.k. and that maybe it should be returned, thus showing good faith on both sides. The younger Thai guys and most of the women felt it was just "old style" and not needed.

 

Oddly, a few farangs took the side of one of the teachers who said it had to ALWAYS be paid. I told her I knew many guys who never paid a bhat, she said "they are lieing, NO THAI GIRL would ever get married with out it." I said "Well, their wives verified it." She replied "They are lieing as well."

 

She went on a rant ans said (with a few farang guys agreeing) that Thai culture had to be respected. I said what about farang culture here? She said "...well the girl's family raised her, fed her, educated her (?) and taught her to cook, clean, and take care of you, so they have to be compensated for you taking her away, in Thai culture, the man MUST ALWAYS pay..."

 

I replied "...well, so did the guy's family right? And in our culture, the girl's family pays!" This drew a blank stare, and the typical reply "That is different." I asked "How is it different?" Another blank stare and hesitation. She said compromise...by offering 1/2 of what they ask for and negotiating. I said "arguing over the "value" of my future my? that is a bit offensive isn't it? Besides, I am already being asked for far more than any Thai man would be asked for right?"

 

The younger Thai women did agree, and said they felt it was very degrading to have their "value" compared to that of other women. I agree. (After all, I am an ardent feminist and supporter of women's rights. :) ) The older woman argued that farangs had more, and thus should offer more. I pointed out that monthly payments and or the occasional big payment/expense would inevitably be handled along the way, thus no need for a cash payment up front.

 

She went on to say that Sin Sot was sort of an "honor deposit" in case the husband ran off, the girl would have less value as she was divorced I asked her if this ment "used goods have less resale value?" and she said "yes, of course." Which pissed off the girls who were on their second go with kids from before, as well as the guys who married them.

 

I explained that the man having to post "an honor bond" of sorts in case he ran off was ridicules, "what if the girl runs off?" I asked, the reply was mind boggling "That cannot happen!" Which again drew confusion and disagreement from the crowd. Now a Senior monk who was listening was asked for his opinion.

 

He said Sin Sot was cultural, not religious, and that all culture changes for better or worse over time (I am paraphrasing here/there). He went on to say that all life had value, which we cannot determine ourselves, and that it was perhaps inappropriate to attach a value to a relationship, and that any relationship that needed to be bought in fact had no real value.

 

He added that any discussion of what the man could provide should be done privately amongst the family, and not part of a public show. He further added that the public display amounted to little more than bragging, and bragging did nothing positive. Many in the crowd agreed. The woman again said she felt the parents needed to be compensated for raising the daughter. The Senior Monk stated that the happiness of the daughter, and her loyalty and taking care of them in life, was "perhaps" far greater in value than a single payment. He added "But how can I say for certain?" and smiled.

 

It seems to me that Thais are divided on this aspect of the culture, and some farangs seem to rush to embrace it to show their willingness to accept the culture. As the monk pointed out, all cultures change over time, and this will be a sticking point for years to come I suppose, especially as farangs continue to marry Thai women. Incidentally, the women who strongly defended Sin Sot is Thai, married to a farang, and has 4 daughters, but is not a Buddhist. I found the diversity of opinions in the conversation interesting.

 

 

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Firstly OH monks don't have opinions....they only offer guidance... ;)

 

I had the exact same discussion with the ironing lady only days ago. The most interesting point she made was that it was a chinese tradition that wormed it's way into thai society through the migration of chinese into northern thailand. It was quickly adopted by a certain class of thai people as a "face" value and in modern times is seen as a way of extorting money from farang.

 

As for the respect of thai traditions I also raised the point that if I was to honour the thai tradition of sinsot out of respect, then she should equally respect the western tradition of the brides family pay for the wedding... :) She agreed but said good luck in getting a family to pay for the wedding if they already demand sinsot.

 

Maybe this could be a way of defining what makes a GTG.... :cover:

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From my limited exposure to the sin sot, I see it as nothing but money grubbing Thais trying to cash in...and this goes on in Thai-Thai marriages!

 

One of the "family" married an Isaan lady. She had no children, 30 y.o., limited education and once married to another Thai already.

Her family demanded 60,000 baht for the sin sot.

OK, she is "used goods" and not a "high value item" (little education) but this was Thai vs Thai, so there you go, money grubbing leeches!!!

 

I am sure that there are many other cases where it is not money grubbing and a real try at doing something in a cultural manner, but this is just one case that I saw close up and personal.

 

For me, I would not give one baht for such a lady, nothing against the lady, but against the money grubbers!!!

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This is prabally the reason I will never marry a Thai (or anyone else)

 

If I was to get that far in a relationship with a TG it would be made very clear I would pay for the wedding and support her and her minor children if she had any. But not a single baht for anyone else; which would prabally end the relationship.

 

 

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I paid sinsot and my wifes family paid for the wedding. My wife is Thai-Chinese.

 

The amount I paid was up to me. So I paid more rather then less. Her mom left the decision up to her. She left it up to me. I paid what I could.

 

They actually spent a decent amount on the wedding (I was surprised).

 

I would also be surprised if none of you fellows were taking care of your parents (or maybe they are all gone? :shrug:) or would not take care of your parents if they needed it. I know personally I would take care of mine if they needed, so I don't see why it would be necessary for me to not compromise on my wife taking care of hers(even if that is through me).

 

I understand everybody has their own principles but without compromise and understanding from both parties any 'relationship' will have a hard time surviving.

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CTO, I wanna hear that story!

 

Likewise I like the Monks input, most sagacious of him.

 

I disagree with sin sot, as it is putting a price on a person. It is also part of the whole 'social' face thing, which has to be the stupidest concept ever. 'Look how much money we have, we are better than you'...

 

I've been told by Thais it is also about the husbands ability to take care of the daughter. My point was that you start your marriage by giving a large amount of money, which would reduce your ability to take care of the daughter. Starting a marriage 'poor' doesn't make sense to me.

 

There seems to be the conservative, brain washed traditional types and the modern balanced kinds in Thai society. Having said all this my Thai-Chinese girlfriends parents will expect sin sot...ultra conservative upper middle class Thais...and I'm sure I'll have to pay a million plus. I will do it out of respect to the culture in which i reside, not because I agree with it and I will hope it is returned to me....

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"...Firstly OH monks don't have opinions....they only offer guidance..."

 

 

This Monk frequently does :) And the way he said it, was classic, as if not really stating an opinion, just passing along something he heard or read, for us to ponder. He also put the disclaimer "...but really, I don't know..." on it, it was almost "Rabinical" :) .

 

Part I forgot was, the woman said she did not ask for any sin Sot herself "I make My own decisions" as her mother was dead, and her father had gone off...she did let her step dad keep the wedding envelopes however. One of the older men who is Chinese Thai, did say he felt Sin Sot was a tradition that was on it's way out, but because of all the farangs marrying poor Thai girls from bars, it was coming back...in a certain segment anyway.

 

You may recall, I had an argument about this topic a few months back, and it ended a casual acquaintance, when the bitch became argumentative, and insular to farang culture. Oddly, that bitch had a son, and claimed to be an ardent feminist.

 

For myself, I have made it clear to the current Mrs. Hippie that I would NEVER pay 1 bht Sin Sot should it ever come to it, and she said "No problem, up to you." Her mom is dead, and her dad, though she likes him, is a hard worker, but he gambles and drinks too much. She did ask if I would help her sister's kids until they were older, "...just little bit, sister can do for herself..." and I have no real problem with that.

 

The only compromise I could see on this is if the Sin Sot was returned ASAP, 100% but even then. I see it as an insult and putting a value on the wife for the purpose of show. I can also see if it were a sticking point to a girl marrying you, then it could well indicate problems down the line.

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