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6 minutes ago, chocolat steve said:

Unfortunately nothing will happen. The Republicans will vote in lockstep. The only thing that will change their minds are the polls. The truth is irrelevant as we all can see. If there is a indisputable facts and the polls in their state still say they will get re-elected if they vote no, they will do so. Ethics and morals and the rule of law has gone totally out the window. 

Gentlemen, we are witnessing proof of the American republic. 

Steve, I agree with you on the observable facts.

I also think the Panadol has a nailed it, when he suggests that there are many, if not most, of the Trump associates, jockeying for immunity, cover, a way out of the country, anything, to avoid the wrath, of the Orange one and the inevitability of the post Trump/Barr DOJ.

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America has changed. Nixon won a resounding landslide in 1972. One of the biggest landslides in presidential electoral elections. When the facts were out his approval rated plummeted to about 19 percent I think and he lost enough Republican senators that he would lose the impeachment trial. 19 percent of the public is still way too many, 1 out of 5 people willing to look away from the law. 

Today, Trump has a hard core support in the 30s or 40s percentage. That should scare not only the other Americans but the world. We are rotten from the inside and with that many people willing to look past ethics, morality and the law, its now too late. It's like the Roman empire at the end. Living on its former glory but endemically weak at the point of no return and I believe the election of Trump and his actions that are not a concern to so many Americans is a clear sign we are clearly a spent force. 

Eventually I think a far left administration and Congress will come to power. Demographic changes are going that way, but it will be too late to get any of America's former glory. America will always be a power. But nothing close to post WW2 eminence. Perhaps similar to pre World Wars 1 and 2 UK and post World Wars 1 and 2 UK. No longer able to project the same power but a force nonetheless. 

It will be China's century. 

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Sol while Trump will likely be exonerated, I think he will lose the election. The fact remains that there are far more people who are Democrats or willing to vote Democrat than there are Republicans. That's why the Republicans are hanging on dearly to the electoral college. Which I think eventually will be done with. 

Anyway, Bernie will get the nomination and will beat Trump fairly easily. The big question is if the polls in the summer show Trump has an insurmountable mountain to climb to get to re-election ,what will he do? Cornered rats are the most dangerous. Will he find some ready excuse like bad health? Will he start a war? Will he use the government to indict his enemies? 

The only saving grace is that there is more of "us" than there are of "them". Trump will end up costing Republicans future national and state elections. What will define the near future for any Republican candidate is if they supported Trump. I think that may happen. Just like how voting for the Iraq war has come back to haunt both Dems and Republicans. The same will be for Trump. If you notice no Republican talks about his or hers support of Bush. And the Dems, politically weak, do not play that card. 

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38 minutes ago, chocolat steve said:

The intelligence community didn't fail in the Gulf of Tomkin, etc. they gave the president the facts and the presidents in those situations worked backwards. LBJ wanted to be in Vietnam, Bush wanted to be in Iraq and lied, nuanced, ete the intel to get the desired result. Bush pushed for going into Iraq, not the bureaucrats or the joint chiefs of staff. They were ordered to make it work. 

Same in this case. The leadership lied about the threat of the Iranian general. 

In the case of Iraq it was a *spectacular* intelligence fail.  If you care to read about it there are many government papers that damn the intelligence community.  Particularly their methodology.  I perceive it as they were happy to have satellites and too heavily reliant on informers - they wanted intelligence at an arm's length.  Gone was the old fashioned practice of putting spies in place - too much work apparently. 

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US President Donald Trump's defence team in his Senate trial will include special prosecutors from President Bill Clinton's impeachment.

He will be represented by Ken Starr and Robert Ray, who investigated Mr Clinton, and Alan Dershowitz, whose past clients include OJ Simpson.

White House counsel Pat Cipollone and Mr Trump's personal lawyer Jay Sekulow will lead the team.

Opening statements in the Trump impeachment trial will begin next week.

___

When the legal fraternity want nothing to do with you, when there's no one left to take your money, to fix your problems, who you gonna call?

"Old Fuckers..."

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2 hours ago, panadolsandwich said:

In the case of Iraq it was a *spectacular* intelligence fail.  If you care to read about it there are many government papers that damn the intelligence community.  Particularly their methodology.  I perceive it as they were happy to have satellites and too heavily reliant on informers - they wanted intelligence at an arm's length.  Gone was the old fashioned practice of putting spies in place - too much work apparently. 

Bush pushed for a war. It wasn't as if it was intel coming in and he felt he had to react to it. There was wide skepticism from the start. It was the tail wagging the dog. It wasn't the various intel areas of the government sounding the alarm to act. There was no internal pressure from the military or the intel community that Iraq posed an immediate threat. It was all Bush pushing for it and using any scrap of circumstantial intel to do something he was going to do no matter the intel otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, Coss said:

US President Donald Trump's defence team in his Senate trial will include special prosecutors from President Bill Clinton's impeachment.

He will be represented by Ken Starr and Robert Ray, who investigated Mr Clinton, and Alan Dershowitz, whose past clients include OJ Simpson.

White House counsel Pat Cipollone and Mr Trump's personal lawyer Jay Sekulow will lead the team.

Opening statements in the Trump impeachment trial will begin next week.

___

When the legal fraternity want nothing to do with you, when there's no one left to take your money, to fix your problems, who you gonna call?

"Old Fuckers..."

Dershowitz has been doing everything but get on his knees with his mouth open to have some sort of role in the administration. He has completely ruined his reputation with everyone. He is part of the NYC social set and they have completely ostracized him. Rightfully so. He has been on record as much. He is not invited to social dinners, etc, any longer. 

He didn't lose his rep with the OJ case because he back pedaled from any claim of his innocence and said 'the prosecution didn't do their job' Implying with dog whistles that OJ was guilty and he could have went to jail had they prosecution presented a case. 

Starr has to completely contradict his prior assertions in the Clinton impeachment which shows you he is full of shit and like most lawyers, has no ethics. 

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Trump on Starr during the Clinton investigation.He was a 'lunatic' back then to Trump (who was a Democrat back then) but now its different. All prior impeachments were wrong EXCEPT this one. it's not even worth debating. Debating the veracity of this is a waste of time. It's akin to arguing 1+1=2 to someone who is adamant the answer is 3. This administration is a complete shit show. Many said it was going to be bad, but it exceeded most people's fears. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/01/17/trump-comment-ken-starr-lunatic-newsroom-vpx.cnn

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CS, as usual you are off the rails with your TDS. Get a grip! Here, facts and truth, this is 1 + 1, but you refuse to expand your knowledge base...up to you...

 

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1 hour ago, chocolat steve said:

Bush pushed for a war. It wasn't as if it was intel coming in and he felt he had to react to it. There was wide skepticism from the start. It was the tail wagging the dog. It wasn't the various intel areas of the government sounding the alarm to act. There was no internal pressure from the military or the intel community that Iraq posed an immediate threat. It was all Bush pushing for it and using any scrap of circumstantial intel to do something he was going to do no matter the intel otherwise. 

...and how many coups were the USA (non) intelligence involved in?

The FBI and CIA have been such a shiny example of integrity...NOT!

1 + 1....get over it...Daddy Bush was head of what, bringing drugs in to Mena? Afghanistan? no drugs there, correct CS or are your math skills so diminished?

 

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