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Remember, its 100k before taxes. Take off 33% minimum from the top. So, we are really talking about 67,000, which isn't bad but its not great either. 5k a month and change with a family isn't a lot of money. And more than likely those 100k salaries are in large, high cost of living areas. Not many 100k people in Vicksburg, Mississippi.

But lets focus on the lower income levels. People have been struggling for several years now. America never fully recovered from the 2008 crash. It's not totally Obama's fault or Trump's fault. They are part of it but the Federal Reserve and the Treasury department played a bigger part. Also, partisan politics. Republicans were totally obstructionist during Obama's 2 terms. 

No one is fixing the problem. I know I sound hyperbolic but we are witnessing the beginning of the end of America with regards to its global financial power. We have a federal debt that in reality will never be paid. Some states are heading there like Illinois. Many cities, like Stockton have filed bankruptcy. Imagine a city filing bankruptcy?!

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/if-you-make-100k-in-san-francisco-you-are-low-income

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Okay Steve, I don't think we're acting in cross purposes here.  I find your posts very insightful, and if I question them, I'm more coming from the place that I want to learn more about how you understand the situation. 

The federal debt is only of concern if it's being spent on useless corrupt projects like border walls.  Unfortunately most people don't understand that federal debt is not the same as household debt.  For example if the US borrowed $300 billion and built an efficient high speed rail network like China is doing, it would boost productivity and most likely be a highly profitable business.  It could pay the money back in 10 years and be left with a profitable business owned by the American public, and not to mention a giant nudge to the country's prestige (take that China).  The rusting factories in bankrupt Detroit could be retooled and refurbished and employ thousands of people.  And that is just one project I'm plucking out of thin air.  Getting a German company to provide the expertise (which would ensure success), and perhaps throwing a small bone to Boeing who are completely fucked right now might  make accepting European expertise slightly more palatable for the Americans. 

There seems to be a growing despair that isn't really based on reality.  Everything the Republicans are trying to do is being hugely pushed back on.  The only thing they've achieved is the tax cut for the rich and whittling away at as many regulations as they can.  All highly predicted and completely expected.  Their failures to do anything else are very encouraging.

It's true that there's been a slow process of whittling away rights, stagnating income etc.  Don't forget the Democrats are very much to blame for this as well.  But what is also true is that given the political will, all of this can easily be reversed, and then improved.  Take Obamacare.  The reason that the Republicans couldn't destroy is because there was enough time for people to become used to it and appreciate it.  What that shows is you can't easily walk back these popular policies.  If the political will is there, well the foundation is there as well - you can build on that and know that anybody who even sends up a trial balloon saying they want to modify it any fashion for the worse is committing a version of political suicide.  This is readily apparent with the British NHS.  If you attempt to fuck with that you are out the fucking door quick smart - virtually noone would tolerate it. 

What I'm trying to say is that improvements that make important differences to people's lives are almost impossible to reverse in a democracy.  Fox news can cry endlessly about Obamacare, but if you are a recipient of it and it's improved your life - that's when people stand up and notice and will tell Fox news to fuck right off.  I mean it wasn't rhetoric, the Republicans genuinely wanted to yank people off life saving dialysis machines for Christ's sake. 

 

 

 

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U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson canceled a planned trip to the U.S. after Trump slammed down the phone on the prime minister. Relations broke down in recent weeks following a series of disagreements between the two over Iran, Huawei, and a rejected request by the prime minister to extradite the wife of a U.S. diplomat. Trump’s behavior during the call was described by officials as “apoplectic.” (The Sun / Business Insider)

Of course...

The Trump administration is deploying specially trained tactical units from the southern border to “sanctuary cities” to help carry out an immigrant arrest operation this weekend alongside Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents. The officers are being sent to cities including Chicago, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Houston, Boston, New Orleans, Detroit, and Newark, N.J. The deployment of the teams will run from February through May, according to an email sent to Customs and Border Protection personnel. (New York Times / Axios)

Meat for the yokels

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I have a good friend who sits firmly in the Trump camp and fully supports the removal of illegal immigrants. However he, like many others, has made significant use of the labor force available outside the local Home Depot over the years and is now seriously upset that the dwindling number of guys available for his "illegal work force" are now demanding significantly more for their time. It's clear to tell he is really wrestling with what the concept of these practices really mean for people such as him.

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No worries Panadolsandwich, this is a discussion. Really, question anything and everything and every one. I am all for a deep dive and if my info or thought process is wrong, so be it. Really. You have very good perspective on things which I respect (Coss as well). 

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5 hours ago, radioman said:

I have a good friend who sits firmly in the Trump camp and fully supports the removal of illegal immigrants. However he, like many others, has made significant use of the labor force available outside the local Home Depot over the years and is now seriously upset that the dwindling number of guys available for his "illegal work force" are now demanding significantly more for their time. It's clear to tell he is really wrestling with what the concept of these practices really mean for people such as him.

I don't want people entering America illegally. No one does. I have not seen any Democrat who is for anyone to enter illegally. The issue is once they are here. Also, the reasons why they are entering. In some countries its circular. America caused the domestic problem in the first place (Honduras). 

I've that many who overly focus on illegal immigration its more than that. There are much deeper issues going on with that and I've rarely known many who put illegal immigration as their 'trigger' issue who didn't have issues with other Americans who are different than they are just for who they are. 

Also, one can deem illegal immigration important without supporting Trump and all the baggage he brings. Kids are in cages. Literally. Small kids, taken away from their parents with no knowledge or communication and as we know now, many were abused physically and sexually and the escalation of putting kids in cages is done by Stephen Miller, known racist whose own family has disowned him. This is who Trump chose. 

It's more than fair to question the morality and character of anyone supporting this. If you can support the separation and abuse of little kids, you are more Nazi than normal. 

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The cages were being used in the Obama era but the fierce keyboard warriors were silent....can you say, farkin hypocrites?

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3 hours ago, cavanami said:

The cages were being used in the Obama era but the fierce keyboard warriors were silent....can you say, farkin hypocrites?

First, Obama built them, there is limited evidence to suggest they were used and the circumstances IF they were ever used specifically to separate kids from parents AS A PUNISHMENT TO ENTERING AMERICA ILLEGALLY AND AS A DETERRENT. Second, If Obama had separated them in the same manner, he is not exonerated. There were no news reports of them being used by the Obama administration  in THE SAME MANNER and in what context BUT if they were, he'd be just as guilty. Parents were separated from children in EXCEPTIONAL cases. That was always done going back to the Ellis Island (disease, signs of abuse, etc.)

This is not a partisan situation. It's a human rights and human dignity situation. It is a fact, Trump made use of it and built more. By using the "Obama did it too" excuse, (and that remains to be proven), its condoning it anyway. Either you condone it or you don't no matter who has done it. 

It's a weak argument frankly. "hey, the Turks committed genocide on the Armenians from 1915 to 1917, and no one said anything, so why are we Nazis made out to be the bad guys for killing 16 million people in death camps?" 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigrants/

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/democratic-debate-september-2019/h_ca819e341152d783479eb2dc6240c08c

Separations did sometimes occur under Obama, but they were non-routine and much less frequent, according to immigration experts and former Obama officials.

They occurred in exceptional cases. Examples include those where the parent was being criminally prosecuted for carrying drugs across the border or other serious crimes aside from illegal crossing, those where human trafficking was suspected and those where the authorities could not confirm the connection between the child and the adult.   

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4 hours ago, radioman said:

Yet still they all want that cheap labor.

 

What they hyper anti immigration groups never admit to is that BOTH sides wanted illegal immigration. There is no country in the history of man that was deemed the biggest economy, ruled its era that wasn't built in large part initially on slave and/or cheap labor. The Persian empire, Roman empire, British Empire, the various Moslem empires, none. That's just a human historical fact and America is no different. As we all know, slave labor in the south and cheap immigrant labor in the north. 

America had plenty of cheap labor up to the post Civil Rights era. The economy needed cheap labor and south of the border was the only reliable place for the various industries to keep prices and labor prices low in the farm industry, restaurant industry, etc. 

Bush had a perfect excuse to shut down the southern border, 911 happened, both houses of Congress was Republican at the time and a healthy fear of terrorists coming in illegally over a porous border, but nothing of note happened because the economy needed the labor. Whisper this but the American economy still needs immigration. Not only for cheap labor in the industries mention but to replace the baby boomer generation who is dying out and bodies needed to pay into the social security system and pay taxes. 

If you ended illegal immigration tomorrow we'd be in a recession. I'm NOT advocating having an open border. Fuck no. But if we are going to do it, lets at least be honest about the ramifications. The economy will eventually have to adjust but it will be very tough. 

Trump has no plan to transition the economy. It's done out of malice. It's done to hurt families. Stephen Miller is a bigoted nationalist. Trump hired him knowingly. Notice you NEVER hear his supporters defending Miller. Congress has petitioned the White House to fire him. 

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