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11 hours ago, paul101 said:

Vietnam the most pointless war in American history, how many dead 55k and for what? the Viet Kong won anyway despite the huge sacrifice made by decent service personal. If the Americans had not got the Brits to leave administering Vietnam in 45 the Viet Minn may well have been defeated for good. The Brits employed the Japanese to fight and almost defeat the unpopular communists, unfortunately the French returned, alienated the populace and were hopeless at jungle warfare. If Kennedy had lived he would have certainly prevented the bloodbath. Another American cock up!

 

FALSE, and badly so, but you have to read the history and look at the actual timeline.

Full Disclosure: I am cribbing heavily from Jerry Pournelle's writings in this.

First, it is necessary to recognize that there were in fact THREE wars being fought in Vietnam in the 1960s and early 1970s.

The first was a revolt-from-within in South Vietnam, by the Viet Cong.  The Viet Cong LOST that war in 1968: the Tet Offensive was their absolute last gasp.  They were losing, they knew it, and the went for broke.  They threw everything they had, including every kitchen sink and chamber pot they could find, at the US Army.  The Army took it all, soaked it up, shook it off, and said, essentially "Is that the best you can do?"  The VC were never a factor again in the hostilities after Tet.  They were done.

The second was a conventional land grab from North Vietnam, that had been flaring up periodically for some two thousand years, that usually fought itself to a standstill at about the DMZ.  The VC made common cause with the North Vietnamese Army, who saw a chance to use a proxy to weaken the Army of the Republic of (South) Vietnam.  Once the VC were off the board, the NVA continued the fight.

The US essentially won that war, and withdrew from Vietnam in 1972, leaving only a commitment to provide air cover when needed.  With air cover, the ARVN was quite capable of handling the NVA, and did so, handily.  This included making Brillo (Tm) pads out of a larger mechanized army than Hitler's Germany ever fielded.  Two years later, while hounding Richard Nixon out of the White House, the Democratic Party reneged on the air cover pledge, and South Vietnam fell.  The US didn't lose; the Democrats THREW THE VICTORY AWAY.

The third war is the interesting one.  Vietnam was not just a stand-alone war: it was a critical campaign of attrition in the Seventy Years War between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  In such a campaign, the trick is NOT TO WIN OUTRIGHT, but rather to keep the other guy thinking that he can win it if just commits some more resources to the meatgrinder.  The object is to cost the other guy a lot more than he costs you, and, in this regard, the US was howlingly successful in Vietnam.  When Vietnam finally fell, the next campaign was in Afghanistan, where all the US did was supply Stinger SAMs to the Afghans, depriving the Soviets of their air cover assets, and letting them learn why nobody in their right minds EVER gets into a serious fight with the Afghans.

Bluntly, the US did not "lose" the Vietnam War.  By any sensible set of victory conditions, the US won.  The problem is that the Democrats then betrayed South Vietnam, and let them fall.

 

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Some data, as of a few days ago.  The first chart is day-to-day new cases, 7-day moving average, for the US.  The second chart is day-to-day deaths, 7-day moving average, for the US.  Bluntly, the pandemic is dying out.

1323231981_200911covidcases.thumb.jpg.eb7d3eca23d03f73176c7a470ca9bf29.jpg1073659715_200911coviddeaths.thumb.jpg.1d1f4dd7a26fdde9fd5583f6119f9a17.jpg

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Because I am thick, what are the numbers on the x axes?

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4 hours ago, Coss said:

Because I am thick, what are the numbers on the x axes?

0,50,100,150,200,250

I think you mean what is the axis title.

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Well if the Vietnam war was not a defeat for the USA I would hate to see one that was

Why the USA lost the war in Vietnam

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z342mp3/revision/4

The Tet Offensive

The Tet Offensive was a huge coordinated attack on the south by the North Vietnamese Army on Vietnamese New Year in 1968.

Over 30 towns and cities were attacked by over 80,000 soldiers. This show of strength convinced many Americans that the war was ‘unwinnable’, especially after the capture of the US Embassy in Saigon.

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6 hours ago, Specialist said:

  Bluntly, the pandemic is dying out.

 

Bluntly, nothing dies out.

The number of infections goes down for whatever reason, although for the widely careless bahaviour in the US it is not really explainable. What happens is that it comes back sure as hell, look at Italy, Spain, France, Israel. All these countries have been living with really strong rules over 6 months now and all of a sudden is it there again in high numbers. Death rates go back because the hospitals can handle it better due to better knowledge and because more young people are infected with higher chances to survive.

The daily death rates US are still at about 1100, the low figures are result of weekend lack of communication. Look at the Johns Hopkins site.

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2 hours ago, paul101 said:

Well if the Vietnam war was not a defeat for the USA I would hate to see one that was

Why the USA lost the war in Vietnam

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z342mp3/revision/4

The Tet Offensive

The Tet Offensive was a huge coordinated attack on the south by the North Vietnamese Army on Vietnamese New Year in 1968.

Over 30 towns and cities were attacked by over 80,000 soldiers. This show of strength convinced many Americans that the war was ‘unwinnable’, especially after the capture of the US Embassy in Saigon.

First, Tet in 1968 was a VC operation, not an NVA operation.  It was a "last gasp", intended to convince the US that the war was unwinnable.  IT DIDN'T WORK, and it finished the VC.  They were never again a factor in "the" war.  The US kept right on going, chewing the NVA into little tiny pieces.

Second, the US wound down its involvement, and withdrew, in 1972.  South Vietnam did not fall until 1974.

In the 1972-1974 period, with heavy backing from the USSR and the PRC, the NVA built TWO of the largest mechanized armies ever seen on the planet, larger than anything Hitler ever fielded in World War II.  (That's saying something.  Germany fielded some BIG mechanized armies.)  The ARVN, with US air support, reduced the first one to Brillo (tm) pads, and sent what was left (NOT MUCH) back to Hanoi.  When the second one headed south, in 1974, the Democrat-controlled Congress voted the equivalent of ten rounds of ammunition and two hand grenades per ARVN soldier, which was not remotely enough.

It should be mentioned.  That was one of the most expensive Brillo pad orders the Soviets ever placed, and it was a chunk of why the Soviet Union fell some years later.

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8 hours ago, Coss said:

Because I am thick, what are the numbers on the x axes?

Days since about Case #1 in the US.

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5 hours ago, Mekong said:

0,50,100,150,200,250

I think you mean what is the axis title.

I'll see your smart arsery and raise it one smart arse.

"I think you mean what is the axis title."  

2 graphs

I think you mean, 'what are the axes titles'  

there y'go, fixed :)

 

1 hour ago, Specialist said:

Days since about Case #1 in the US.

thank you

9 hours ago, Specialist said:

Some data, as of a few days ago.  The first chart is day-to-day new cases, 7-day moving average, for the US.  The second chart is day-to-day deaths, 7-day moving average, for the US.  Bluntly, the pandemic is dying out.

I'll wager the graphs go up again shortly, and then down again, when the Trumpanzees figure out that Trump was misleading them, about how benign the virus is. It'll take about  6 months for this to permeate the AR15 haze they are swimming in. And then they'll be screaming  "why did the Dems make Trump do what he did?"

Like Trump saying that Woodward should have alerted the Nation, back when Trump's was lying so that the Nation could have been able, to  take better steps, to control the virus. Except that Woodward is not the POTUS, nor does Woodward have to do Trump's job.

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Lots of laughter here.  So if Woodward would have published the bad news about Trump holding back his knowledge :  " Woodward  a chronical liar, conspiring with the Dem´s and all a hoax by the biased failing NY Times!!! "  President Trump would have yelled.

 

Am I right?

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