Steve Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 I've been reading articles lately about the Euro. Europe. Greece. Italy. etc. I want to understan it a bit better so I'm asking you Europeans as well as non Europeans who are knowledgeable about it. This the jist I get from some of my readings. European countries in the union have a lot more social programs than we have in American. There seems to be a social contract of sorts that no one should be left out. What it appears is that the only way some of these financial problems can be fixed is that the social welfare state as we refer to it in America has to be greatly reduced and in some cases ended. This may be an erroneous view but it appears that the people want it resolved without any or very little reduction in these 'cradle to grave' social programs. Will the people force their governements to keep these programs even at the risk of default? Or is it overblown and the various governments can still keep these programs and resolve in other ways? Taxing the corporations and wealthy has been mentioned. New revenue sources as well. Legalizing and taxing gambling, drugs (like pot), etc. ? What do you all think is the main problem and some possible solutions? I want to understand the situation better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 "Cradle to the Grave" social programs are the rule rather than the exception in most of the western world (apart from US where it seems anyone who suggests the idea is branded a communist). I think Greece's problem is basically not a lot of people have been paying taxes. I'm no expert though and have no idea how this happened. A lot of people (me included) find it amusing that the Greeks with all their amazing history, culture etc - seem to have no problem being over run with Germans or Nazis but as soon as they are asked to work or pay taxes they riot! Disclaimer: I haven't been to Europe in almost 10 years, and am simply looking in from down here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lazyphil Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 all out war within 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashermac Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Everybody beats up on the French? That would be a popular war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian2 Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Hard to say, there doesn't seem to be a lot of outright antagonism between countries, even Greece and Turkey don't seem to have taken a shot at each other for a while. Trying to persuade ordinary citizens to go to war because another country owes their's money will be difficult, as much as the corporate media tries to stir up nationalistic feelings. To be honest I've never seen a group more disinclined to fight their countries wars as today's teenagers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Munchmaster Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Everybody beats up on the French? That would be a popular war. It would also be a very short war if the French were involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamui Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Hard to say, there doesn't seem to be a lot of outright antagonism between countries, even Greece and Turkey don't seem to have taken a shot at each other for a while. Trying to persuade ordinary citizens to go to war because another country owes their's money will be difficult, as much as the corporate media tries to stir up nationalistic feelings. To be honest I've never seen a group more disinclined to fight their countries wars as today's teenagers. No war at all. There is nearly no public protest in the major countries. Big demonstrations were in Greece and most recently in Italy (against Berlusconi who is gone now). The Europeans are surprisingly calm. Additionally for a war you need countries pitched against each other in a terrible and extremely hateful way. This is not happening at the moment and I don't see any seeds planted which would grow in this direction. The most vulnerable countries are those in which a huge part of the population was employed by the govnerment (Greece), but paid nearly no taxes and retired before 60 (Greece and Italy) or had a completely overheated housing market (Spain, Ireland, England). In short, those countries are the deepest shit which lived way above their means (like the USA as well). Unfortunately the problems caused by those countries couldn't be contained, since the leading countries like Germany and France have lend a lot of money to them (public and private money). In the beginning Europe tried the usual to contain the problems: some half-baked help and a lot of nice words. The market didn't accept this. The time for nice words is over. Now it gets worse every week, which means the solutions needed to solve the crisis will become more and more radical. Also the crises laid bare the huge structural, economical and political differences in the countries. Until recently Europe covered this with smooth talk, false compromises and billions of Euro wasted. Luckily this fake peace is gone. The most obvious sign is the radical split between Germany/France and GB. While GB never accepted the EUR it sat on the table when any financial decision was made. Now the British left the table - and no one knows if this is good or bad for Europe and/or GB. If Europe fails, GB might be in a stronger position soon. If Europe recovers GB might lose big time, since especially French won't forget that GB left the table in times of crisis. Actually no one seems to have a receipt what to do. Europe is now a bundle of diverging interests. Governments against Governments, private financial sector against governments, the electorate against its own government, e.g. IMHO if Europe and the EUR survives, the current crisis has a cathartic effect: it shows who is pro or against Europe and who has the economic strength, the bureaucratic structure (even if Greece wants to collect higher taxes and wants to fight corruption and waste, they can't because they lack the bureaucracy to do so) and a suitable political system to be able to be a part of the EUR zone. Many commentators now talk about a "Multi-speed Europe". The leading economies will drive Europe and make the rules, while the weak and/or bankrupt ones will stay behind. And GB which never loved Europe will retreat to it's island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian2 Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I came up with this brilliant solution to one of Europe's problems on another forum yesterday, allow me to share it with our economic experts here.... The solution to get Britain onto the Euro is simple. Millions of French and German tourists invade the UK and change tens of thousands of Euros each into pounds sterling. And now... how diabolical is this? They don't spend them they take them home and burn them!!!!! Just call me the new John Maynard Keynes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BelgianBoy Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 2 Yanks, 2 Ozzies, 2 Brits, and the well informed opinion of a German. I agree with Kamui, sometimes there is too much Europe, most of the time there is not enough of it.... As for the UK, they dont even want to be in Europe, yet they are a member only for the benifits, without Schengen, without the Euro and without paying full memberships.....how will that work ? We, Europe, are the UK's biggest business partner, same as the USA's, Russia and even China. Too big to fail BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lazyphil Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 its like a sack of rats fighting!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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