Afghanistan - Did We Learn Anything ?

[panadolsandwich]

Do you ever wonder why Iran and North Korea don't have central banks? I'll give you a clue - Libya didn't have one that long ago. I found this news very amusing: http://www.cnbc.com/id/42308613/Libyan_Rebels_Form_Their_Own_Central_Bank This is just blatant and in your face - no obscure journals here.

 

Iran and North Korea are the bogeymen. Look at the North Korea's latest mis-step - they are an international laughing stock. What everyone should find more funny is that they could ever, even in the most fantastical dreams be a threat to us. Even in these propogandic nightmares if they made a first strike they know they would be completely annihilated.

 

This is about power. What, may I ask do you think happened in Libya? Britain, France, and the good ole' USA got a weak UN resolution and tricked the 'non-alliance' countries - then basically used it to do whatever they wanted anyway. That's one of the reasons why Syria is being ignored - they won't be tricked again.

 

The only reason the US hasn't invaded Iran already is because they are scared of the consequences. In fact they are already at war with Iran. They've effectively sanctioned them out of the global financial system. Also the CIA are funding internal Iran terrorists (ironically described as such by the Pentagon) to knock off Iran scientists.

 

Expect to see the rhetoric about Iran ratchet up even more than it is now. A withdrawal from Afghanistan would free up resources for Iran as well - which is minuscule militarily compared to the US - else they wouldn't be contemplating it as another foreign adventure.

 

The Fox viewers in the states will watch it like 'Independence Day', completely ignorant what's going on, and 'supporting' the troops - and what a completely vacous thing that is. It doesn't mean anything.

[huumlaar]

Read "Caravans" by Mitchener from cover to cover then come back and discuss Afghanistan.

 

It should have been compulsory reading to anyone getting involved, note it was published in 63 and written long before that.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravans_%28novel%29

 

While it sounds like a romantic story it predicts Russia getting involved in a war it can't win, USA doing the same, the Talaban crazies, pretty much EVERYTHING we known about Afghanistan and don't really like.

 

Plus all the stuff of why these people fight over it etc.

 

In it he describes a women being stoned to death, smart young Afghan engineers, the tussles between Russia and USA, etc. Ignore the romance and see it for it's intelligence value, which so few people have. Note also Mitchener's personal background to write so well about this area perhaps.

 

Good book.

[Flashermac]

Oh, God ... Michener. He started out as a very capable writer with books like The Bridges of Toko Ri. Then he morphed into the cut-and-paste man with his huge "novels" which consisted mostly of taking historical facts, stringing them together chronologically and changing the people's names. Towards the end of his life he had teams researching for him, which is how he could crank out big books so quickly. I saw this clearly in Centennial, since I'd lived in Colorado and could identify the original of just about everything he wrote.

 

However, his writing "style" does mean his books give you a fairly accurate region of what really happened. (I started Caravan but never finished it.)

 

 

 

[ThaiHome]

Very witty reply Yimsiam.

 

It's become abundantly clear that real enemy is the Al-qaeda leadership in Pakistan. So the real question should be - why the hell is the US fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan? Especially because before the US started bombing (Afghanistan) the Taliban made quite a reasonable offer to hand over Bin Laden. In fact the overwhelming evidence is that a diplomatic approach was not even considered. Until certain internal documents are leaked or released - we may never know precisely why - but it's not that hard to infer why. Why has crony capitalism flourished under the government of US supported Hamid Karzai? What was the real story behind the Governer of the Afghan central bank fleeing the country in fear of his life last year? How many US corporations have profited from the war, and by how much? More to the point - why was this war even started when a Morgan-Gallop poll showed even before the bombing started that the overwhelming majority of people in every country in the world was completely against it?

 

The lessons are there alright. You need to read some of the more obscure journals sometimes, because almost all of the juicy details are never reported by the media - and be willing to infer things for yourself - still that's not hard. Or if you can't be buggered there is always Fox news and Bill O'reilly. Let them digest it all for you and let you know how it is, Lol.

 

 

Negotiations with the Taliban to turn over Bin Laden (by the Clinton administration) began after he was indicted for the August 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These negotiations continued even after 9/11 though by that time is was obvious the Taliban was never going to give him up. There are different opinions about what went wrong over the 3 years and if the Taliban ever intended to turn him over.

 

Interesting Washington Post article from October 2001about what happened .

 

Diplomats Met With Taliban on Bin Laden

 

I do agree that an all out war was probably not the right thing and a limited effort to just snatch him and leave the Taliban in power might have worked out better. I think Bush was very much afraid that a limited Special Forces type snatch would not have worked and caused that force to be all but wiped out. He was no doubt haunted by the aborted Iran hostage strike and the subsequent political fallout that likely caused the Reagan landslide.

 

But hindsight, even when 20/20 is not always a sure thing. I don’t think that if the US had got hold of Bin Laden in late 2001 in a limited military effort it would have changed things very much today.

TH

[gobbledonk]

Further to my point of Pakistanis wanting to remain in the 12th Century:

 

Honor Killing

 

A Pakistani born couple living in England has gone on trial, accused murdering their teenage daughter because she has become 'too westernised'.

 

Iftikhar and Farzana Ahmed stand accused of killing their 17-year-old daughter Shafilea nine years ago because she had brought shame upon the family.

 

Shafilea's alleged 'shameful' acts include wanting to go to university and to have a boyfriend like other girls her age.

 

Shafilea disappeared just a day after she enrolled herself in college and began a part time job in 2003.

 

Her parents failed to report her missing, and an investigation was only started after a teacher raised the alarm.

 

Her decomposed body was found on the banks of a nearby river five months later.

 

Police finally got the breakthrough they were waiting for when Shafilea's sister came forward to say she witnessed her parents kill her sister.

 

My question is simple - why the hell did these people migrate to the UK in the first place if they were happier in their 12th Century existence in Pakistan ? It certainly wasnt to give their children a better life - one daughter dead and the other permanently scarred by seeing her murdered by her own parents. Fucking animals.

[pasathai1]

any society that condones this is shit

 

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/

[Steve]

Wasn't Clinton offered bin Laden when he was in north Africa? After he engineered the first twin towers bombing? Wasn't Clinton's reasoning that he did not have enough evidence to conclude he could get a conviction in a US court. Noble reasons. CIA just getting him and killing him would have been cleaner but legally, may not be moral.

 

I recall getting into arguments with Nation of Islam guys in my area and their spouting about the evil America does, this and that. I agreed about the evil America does but asked them what does Islam do about things like slavery of subharan blacks stolen to be slaves in north African countries? Or the many different practices throughout the region with regards to women being blamed for their own rape and allthough its the first time I'm hearing of this, the dancing boys would be my question as well? Its all hypocracy.

 

I did hear that American soldiers were propositioned in Afghanistan for sex. Sex with teen boys is the socially accepted way and the closest physical thing they can get compared to women since we all know how they feel about keeping women from men. This thing is a result of the separation of the sexes and the limited access to free, open consensual sex socially as it is in the west.

 

There are a few obvious global military don'ts that are well known to everyone. Don't get into a land war in Asia (particularly China). Don't invade Russia (Napolean, Hitler), don't play Man Utd at Old Trafford for a big game because the EPL referees are bent and don't invade Afghanistan, its unwinnable (Alexander the Great, British Empire).

 

Things like the dancing boys, honor killings, etc. needs continued and visible media and political pressure. Not sure how much it will do but I think if there is a constant global shaming of the act and label them as the acts of a non modern, backwards, morally bankrupt society some changes may occur. Its my hope at least.

[Specialist]

Negotiations with the Taliban to turn over Bin Laden (by the Clinton administration) began after he was indicted for the August 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These negotiations continued even after 9/11 though by that time is was obvious the Taliban was never going to give him up.

There was a reason for that.

 

After Afghanistan fell, and the Taliban booked foot for parts unknown, the mop-up squads found a Taliban safe house in Kandahar. The safe house contained, among other things, al-Qaida payroll records. In detail.

 

It turned out that the Taliban was on Osama bin Laden's payroll, and had been for a LOOOONG time.

 

Not to mention Mullah Omar being married to one of Osama bin Laden's daughters...

 

The Taliban was NOT going to give up their employer, not as long as his checks continued to clear.

[Steve]

 

The Taliban was NOT going to give up their employer, not as long as his checks continued to clear.

America has infinitely more money than bin Laden so we could have 'paid' for him, couldn't we?

[acockasian]

.......... many Americans seem to accept that if the President says 'Weapons of mass destruction' or 'War on terror', then its 100% fine to send their sons to fight for corrupt fuckers like Karzai.

 

A steady diet of American news will lead to a very different view of the world.