Hamas

[huumlaar]

OK! This says it all for me.

[robaus]

However, in a war, the winner gets the spoils.

 

...that’s a bit of a primitive attitude, CS, I’m amazed. So it was OK for Hitler to occupy Europe? It’s also contrary to the UN Charter and Geneva Convention.

 

Israel has even broken the terms of the Balfour Declaration, in which UK gave away Palestine in return for Rothschild’s help in World War 1, 95 years ago almost to the day..

“His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestineâ€

 

If you want to learn the history start with Wikipedia and move onto Palestine Remembered. Penguin books “Israel and the Arabs†by a French Jew Maxine Rodinson is worth a read, and the books by Israeli writers Benny Morris and Norman Finkelstein.

 

http://en.wikipedia....sraeli_conflict

http://en.wikipedia....tinian_conflict

http://en.wikipedia....estinian_people

http://en.wikipedia....stinian_refugee

http://en.wikipedia....tinian_diaspora.

http://www.palestine....com/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein

[robaus]

OK! This says it all for me.

 

Yes, it does say it all...blatant discrimination.

[robaus]

“BANGKOK (Reuters) - President Barack Obama insisted on Sunday that Israel had a right to defend itself but said it would be "preferable" to avoid an Israeli ground offensive in Gaza.

He said persuading Israel not to attack would depend on the success of efforts by Middle East leaders to bring a halt to Hamas rocket fire into Israel.â€

 

Isn’t that exactly what Egypt brokered on 12 November? Hamas announced a ceasefire and they kept it for 2 days, while Israel continued their air strikes. No Israelis had been killed at that stage, although more than a dozen Palestinians had. Then on 14th November Israel assassinated a high ranking Hamas member, who ironically was the chief truce negotiator, and all hell broke loose. Makes you wonder what Israel’s motives are.

 

Meanwhile, yesterday an Israeli air attack killed 12 members of one family when [American] F 16 jets fired 2 missiles and reduced the 4 storey house to rubble ... 5 women, one 80-year-old, and 4 small children were among the dead. But it was the wrong building. Israel didn’t even apologise. They said it had been a “technical errorâ€.

Elsewhere, at least three children - including an 18-month-old infant - and two women were killed in an air raid east of Bureij refugee camp in central Gaza.

 

Has the world lost its heart and conscience?

 

The Israelis are monsters out of control, and their American backers are equally to blame.

 

I am saddened and disgusted with the whole obscenity.

 

And this coming from a people who have suffered so much persecution themselves in their history. The irony astounds me.

[huumlaar]

Robus, ironically and sadly if you ever look at the history of people who abuse their children etc, they often themselves where abused,

 

Personally I think Iran's idea of Israel being placed INSIDE German borders would have been a wonderful act, place them in the land of those who hurt them the most.

[Guest lazyphil]

Robus, ironically and sadly if you ever look at the history of people who abuse their children etc, they often themselves where abused,

 

Personally I think Iran's idea of Israel being placed INSIDE German borders would have been a wonderful act, place them in the land of those who hurt them the most.

 

are you serious?

[Steve]

...that’s a bit of a primitive attitude, CS, I’m amazed. So it was OK for Hitler to occupy Europe? It’s also contrary to the UN Charter and Geneva Convention.

 

 

I was under the impression the Arab countries attacked Israel unprovoked. That is the premise I made that statement under. Hitler was not provoked. There is a HUGE difference.

Keeping land seems a violation of an agreement. Fair enough but if you attack and lose and don't have any consequence, then you're likely to repeat again.

[robaus]

I was under the impression the Arab countries attacked Israel unprovoked. That is the premise I made that statement under. Hitler was not provoked. There is a HUGE difference.

Keeping land seems a violation of an agreement. Fair enough but if you attack and lose and don't have any consequence, then you're likely to repeat again.

 

Perhaps you should rearrange your last sentence and apply it to Israel “If you attack and win [with unnecessary overkill] and don’t have any consequences; then you’re likely to repeat again.â€

 

It depends how you define provocation?

 

Rubbing German noses in the poo with massive war reparations, humiliating restrictions and having land taken from them that the French and British insisted on at the Treaty of Versailles, virtually guaranteed another World War...spoils of the victor, eh!. If there’d been some sort of Marshall plan after World War 1 which I think the Americans proposed but it got voted down, probably Hitler would never have come to power.

 

If you were a Palestinian and you see masses of foreign immigrants from 1917 onwards, coming not as invited guests, but with the avowed intention of establishing a Jewish state on your land and making you 2^nd class citizens...is that provocation?

 

Then the occupying powers, firstly the Turks, then the British, then the UN, and now the Israelis tell you to do what you’re told and accept your fate...is that provocation?

 

No-one had the right to give away Palestinian land in the first place, neither the British who started this whole mess in 1917 nor the UN. Palestinians had and still do have the right to resist occupation.

 

As I said above, I think they are wasting their time resisting with violence and inferior weaponry...no chance of success. And their efforts however pathetic don’t go down well in the western media.

 

I think they’d be much better off passively resisting using social networks to shame the Israelis as I described above (...and the US too). Launch a TV channel in the US to rival Fox Noise...not as serious as Al Jazeera but with lots of popular patriotic US content, but subtly pro Palestinian news reports i.e. be as crafty as Murdoch to get your message across.

 

If I were them, I’d even sit down with the Israelis without preconditions, and tell the world daily how greedy the Israelis are being. Play the victim game better than the Israelis. Refuse to accept anything short of a just agreement, and simply keep negotiating for another 20 years until you outbreed the Jews. Meanwhile get some sort of UN recognition and arrange economic boycotts of Israeli goods or anyone else who supports Israel.

 

Other bleaker scenarios:

 

Rogue terrorists explode a dirty bomb in Tel Aviv. Israel blames Iran...Armageddon.

 

Terrorists bring the war to the USA, as the IRA successfully did to the UK. More 911s in more US cities

.

Terrorists target Israelis and their interests overseas. Ex IDF doing their world tours tend to congregate together. Hamas and IJ could assassinate far more IDF in Khao San Road than they could in Gaza.

 

The bitterness being experienced by someone in Gaza may be nurturing just such a terrorist right now. It’s all so counter productive. The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

 

My peace plan outlined in an earlier post would make a much more sensible solution.

 

[Guest lazyphil]

i roll my eyes when edl types use australias immigration system as an example we should follow. i.e, keeping out 'undesirables'....hmmmm are the black fellas at the helm of that dept?.....

[Steve]

There is plenty to get on the Palestinians about. My post was premised in a manner where it was more a question than a statement. I admittedly don't know the details as much as you guys, just stating a consistent theme in wars. The winner takes the spoils. That's pretty much part of war.

 

I think the Palestians (or their leadership) have engaged in some pretty nasty business. Many things, like hiding weapons in Red Crescent vehicles that are intended to take care of the wounded and costing lives because Israel has to stop them to check for weapons. I don't think the Palestinian leadership have been honest or fair throughout. However, I don't think Israel has been as well. Both fringes of each seem intent on agreeing that the conflict should go on.

 

Although being a Christian and by definition a zionist, I totally agree in the interest of fairness, how Israel got the land was totally unfair to the Palestinians. Pretty much like how our natives lost their land was unfair to them. We used 'manifest destiny' as an excuse, Israel used religion and God's promise.

 

I actually think the hold up to any plan is partially America and to some extent Europe. Until America gets to a point where our stance towards Israel isn't based on votes and some countries in Europe supporting out of guilt (Germany, Engand, etc.) then those in Israel who don't want peace in lieu of land will feel beholden to keep on doing things to exasperate the situatoin such as taking land and water rights.

 

On the other side, the Arab league will always use the matter as a way to keep the people mentally occupied so they don't see the corruption and/or incompetence in their own governing.

 

The final piece is China and Russia on the security council giving a damn.