what is face?

[pattaya127]

To draw a parallel, it's one thing to intellectually understand there are five tones in Thai language. It's another thing to use them correctly.

 

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Now, the question would be to expats: granted that you are not doing anything "in your face" when dealing with thais (no anger, bursts, swift judgements, etc...), can you still find instances where you may have done/said something clumsy, inopportune (though you became aware of it too late) in a social or business relation that proved to be detrimental to that relation. How important is it when a farang makes some slight errors about face? Examples would be great....

[Guest]

>Examples would be great.... <

 

 

 

showing anger does not necessarily mean that you automatically loose face. but you better make sure that you win the conflict.

 

i had once a very loud argument in the landoffice with the person who sold us our land, when we realised that she wanted to fuck us over. we won that conflict. we gained face, she lost face. after the conflict the people in the office went and chatted with us, not with her side.

 

the way how we solved that conflict raised our status. since then we have had a very smooth ride with all burocratic things concerning our land.

 

if you have face, people are reluctant to get into an argumant with you, will think twice before trying to play you. and in a situation of need, they will come a lot easier to assist you.

 

keeping face is a difficult thing, there are a lot of social rules to adhere to.

 

if you have face, you have to be generous to a certain extend, you have to show constantly that you are worth of the face given to you.

 

it is a very difficult thing at times, because there are some very fine lines. i, as a farang, have to think a lot about these things which come natural to thais, and more often than not i have to consult the missus before making decisions which could affect the "face".

 

 

 

face, i think, is the basic fabric which keeps the society here together, decides to a large part who is where in any social setting. and from that point of view many very illogical sounding conflics suddenly become more understandable. if you as a farang want to reach something here you have to familiarise yourself with that.

 

 

 

but don't ask me to define it, because i can't.

[pattaya127]

I understand that, but you have not told me about instances where you "missed out" on face and realized it after, when it had affected whatever was at hand:business prospects, social acquainting, networking, good neighbouring, etc.... what was the effect of it was it and could you work your way back to erase that effect?

[Guest]

Whilst difficult to give you a concrete example, the advantage a long term foreign resident has over Thais is that he can always apologize later with a smile and say that its all a misunderstanding of words or actions. One can still play ignorance to some extend, even if one speaks Thai fluently and is judged to know better.

 

 

 

Important thing to remeber about face in the work place.

 

If you as a farang boss have to scold a Thai employee, then never do this in front of his collegues. Take him/her apart in your office for example and get as upset as you like. Tyr to avoid at all cost to make him/her lose face in front of collegues.

[Guest]

i do prefer to forget those moments...

 

 

 

but trust me, the effects of a "lost face" are not very nice. it's a learning curve.

[legover]

 

 

so the underlying assumption is we cannot arrive at a good understanding of face without learning to be proficient in spoken Thai... because it?s so extremely complex as to defy comprehension .. hence it cannot be explained using the English language, confounding the best translators who possess a good grasp of its deep and far-reaching meaning?

 

 

 

True, false or ?I wish it were that easy??

 

 

 

?in interaction with many other behavioural characteristics (such as the hiararchy of inner- and outer circle) which are at play. Several expats who spent years in Thailand told me they still don't fully comprehend it?.

 

 

 

why not? what kind of teachers did they have?

 

 

 

 

 

?with subtle nuances that are impossible to understand without an excellent grasp of the language?.

 

 

 

These can be translated into English, surely.

 

 

 

 

 

?To draw a parallel, it's one thing to intellectually understand there are five tones in Thai language. It's another thing to use them correctly?.

 

 

 

Something that can be taught quite easily.

 

 

[Guest]

>These can be translated into English, surely. <

 

 

 

no, they can't.

 

they can maybe explained, but that is difficult as those subtleties are very much connected to the cultural behavioral patterns.

 

a lot of those subtleties contain certain non-verbal communication connected to specific expressions. very, very complicated.

 

 

 

 

[jingjoh]

Did you read the next post in the thread? when I tried to explain what I was saying? (writing when exhausted isnt a good idea )

 

 

 

I see where I made a typo in your cut and paste, I was trying to say face is complex, but its not important to our daily lives back home, its not something thats ingrained into us since birth, and therefore alot harder to incorporate when living in a culture that practically runs on it. Its not subconcious to us, we have to think about it.

 

You guys have not read the posts real careful, my post was about face over money or money over face, not whether we know anything about how to use face as non Thais.

 

 

[legover]

?no, they can't.

 

they can maybe explained, but that is difficult as those subtleties are very much connected to the cultural behavioral patterns.

 

a lot of those subtleties contain certain non-verbal communication connected to specific expressions. very, very complicated?.

 

 

 

would you kindly define non-verbal communication and tell us more fully why an explanation cannot be translated so it can be understood?

 

 

 

Is it because Thais have special words for which there is no known English meaning, or is it something else?

 

Cultural behavioral patterns, body language and facial gestures aren?t hard to understand with graphic aids.

 

Can you give us an example of ?very, very complicated?? or is the meaning of face, in your view, so mysterious only those exposed to it for many years can comprehend its finer subtleties.

 

I?m sure it?s very, very complicated in some circumstances. Perhaps it would help by giving simple examples, moving to the complicated ones gradually.

 

 

[Straycat]

fripence-

 

 

 

I think you just have to acknowledge that this is a complex matter.

 

 

 

Language together with social interaction really isn't as you and I know it from the Western world. There are, for example, 17 ways to say "I" and 19 ways to say "you" in Thai -- all to be used differently depending on who you are, whom you're adressing and the context. Not complex enough? Then acknowledge there are four 'uses of language' within the Thai language: royal, polite, colloquial and vulgar. Use the wrong form at the wrong occasion and you've made a fool out of yourself.

 

 

 

Then add non-verbal communication (for example the "wai") and manners (for example the notion of "kreng jai" -- look it up if it's unfamiliar) it quickly gets very complicated, if not uncomprehensible, to the person born and raised outside of Thailand.

 

 

 

My two satangs.

 

 

 

Straycat