spirit_of_town_hall Posted July 5, 2001 Report Share Posted July 5, 2001 Flyonzewall, Cheers, learn something new everyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted July 5, 2001 Report Share Posted July 5, 2001 quote: Originally posted by notroll: i got a reply back from one of the people that requested my km11 info, he told me that he had taken a short time in bangkok, she had agreed to 1,000 baht. everything was great until after they finished, when she demanded a tip of an extra 1,000 baht, and refused to leave his room until he caved in and gave it to her. i doubt that he was the first she pulled this on, or that he will be the last. paying $44 for a short time, he could have had 9 short times at a place an hour's flight to the east, or a girl for 48 hours and as many times as he wanted. Notroll, it's the law of averages that count.You live in Pattaya, you know. When you add all you spend and divide by as many girls, no need to go to Cambodia if $ is the matter. the bigger rip-offs are not done on S/T occasions but by long-scheming girls, and then it's just part of the boy meets girl routine all around the world. Stop with the info reporting and write us a great erotic report. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted July 5, 2001 Report Share Posted July 5, 2001 quote: Originally posted by flyonzewall: thaihome, you are right, the cambodia issue is very personal to me. and very emotional. thanx for the support. ------------- likewise.I have been reading tons on cambodia, and the current situation always brings us back to the fateful late seventies. Can't quite equate cambodia with Thailand, really. Totally out of topic, maybe: There is this donut shop in SF,where the clerk is a beautiful cambodian young woman (married, sob,sob). She constantly smiles, the kind of grin that changes your day for the best and i can't help comparing with all the little white jerks around town who serve the customer as if it was the greatest effort asked from them, then i know cambodian people are a special people, worth a lot more than a few visits at km11 or else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2001 Report Share Posted July 5, 2001 Flyonzewall, Thanks for the reply, I think I understand where you're coming from a bit better now. What you are saying seems a lot more reasonable in that light. I don't think the flames helped your case at all! You have a right to inform people of the indentured prostitution that is present in Cambodia, but I subscribe to the live and let live philosophy and I wouldn't criticize anyone who patronised such places personally as long as they treated the girls properly. I've been to Km11 and spoken as best I could to some of the girls I went with there, they all chose to work there to support their families. Some had worked several 6-month contracts and kept coming back to Km11 from Vietnam to work as they could earn more money there than they would earn in several years on the farm. They laughed when I asked them if they were forced or coerced into it, said of course not. I believe them. I also believe that very many girls are not there of their own free will, by this I mean Cambodia in general, not Km11 specifically. It's just that this slavery side of things is more prevalent upcountry and in Khmer-frequented places such as Tuol Kok and other unsavoury areas. Km11 is mainly a farang area and most guys that go to Cambodia will not see or participate in the slavery that you describe. I am not saying it does not exist at Km11, indeed I expect it does, on what scale I'm not sure, but it is not apparent on the surface. It's very easy for some guys to find only what they want to find there and think of it as a paradise whilst ignoring the fact that the girls are not free to leave, as they've been paid up front for a term of service in the brothel, and cannot leave until they have either worked for an agreed length of time or earned enough money for the mamasan. I expect a lot of guys are pissed off because you just destroyed their illusion. It was nothing they didn't really know already, they just like to turn a blind eye. I have no moral problem with myself or others going with girls from indentured places as long as they chose to work there. If I ever found out a girl was being beaten or had been forced to work there against her will I would never patronise that place again. I understand your point of view but I don't agree that it is just as bad to go with any girl that works in such a place because you are supporting the system that in other cases is responsible for a lot of suffering. That's a bit like saying never go with a Thai bargirl because there are some that are coerced into it to feed Papa's drinking and gambling habits back in Buriram! Sure, there are, but I think you can only do so much to help. As long as the girls you are with are "volunteers" then I have no moral qualms. I don't think we'll ever agree entirely on this issue, but I hope you can see my side of it too. Any comments welcome. DJ1999J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2001 Report Share Posted July 5, 2001 quote: Originally posted by notroll: i've been coming here since 1967, and you used to get value received for value given, without all the ploys for more and more money. as with all things in all places, things change. Notroll, I've never had this problem. One of the reasons I like Thailand so much is that I have never had a girl try to "suck" me for more money than I initially gave her. Are you doning something to these girls to make them think they desirve more than the usual ST fee? - FB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2001 Report Share Posted July 5, 2001 dj1999j, i know that km 11 is only one of the places in cambodia, and by far not the worst. you mentioned tuol corc, i have seen many westerners doing brothel hopping there, even in the cambodian section, which is outright evil. when i was the last time in cambodia, km eleven was not really farang area. westerners were able to go there in the more quiet daytime, but at night when the cambodian clientel came none of the westerners went. i see km 11 somehow a symbol, that's why i rant against it. and very bad things happen there. you said you would not visit a brothel when you would find out that girls in there were forced or beaten. well, most brothels all over cambodia i have seen, had all the different systems in the same place. some women were there by their own choice, some in debtcontract, some outright slaves. km 11, downstairs you have the women in debtcontract or already free, but upstairs in some of the places i have seen gutwrenching things. you said live and let live. i do not enirely agree with that in this particular issue. look at people like this guy winston james, he claimes that he treates the girls he is with very nicely, only that every female which barely finished puberty he sees as material for fulfillment of his wet dreams and material for his disgusting videos. pedophiles (don't get me wrong, i do not claim you are one!) defend themselves that they treat their objects of lust nicely. there must be a line. only problem there is that these lines are very personal. my solution in cases of doubt is going back towards the values of my own and most other westerners upbringing with a certain tolerance towards the general asian situation, still considering asian mainstream culture, which by the way is a lot less permissive than western. what many people do, learning asian values in brothels, and then declaring these as asian culture i do not accept. if i would do that i could o around shooting people i do not like just because that is accepted as a solution to conflicts in the context of the redlight world in places like cambodia, would you call that live and let live? no, of course not. but that would be adaptation to a particular subculture in the same way as using the advantages of indentured prostitution just because it is endemic. Â you mentioned a woman in thailand coerced by her whiskey dring father. well, i do not deny that forced prostitution exists in thailand, but in the areas where westerners are involved it is the exception. there are laws in thailand dealing with that, law inforcement in this particular area became a lot better in the last years. in cambodia... indentured prostitution is everywhere, europe, america, all over the world, and i think it is wrong wherever it happens. most people on these boards are in some way involved in prostitution, through that have the opportunity to get more insight than others. and because of that, nobody has the excuse to turn a blind eye. even further i think that the responsibilty of making a distinction lies entirely with us. if we can't do that, we are nothing else than the instinct driven animals tabloid media wants us to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 6, 2001 Report Share Posted July 6, 2001 long gun; this file is sort of a hodge podge, parts of it are from letters i wrote to people. it really needs to be re written and formed up. i need to expand on the part about the good points of living in pattaya. i don't really like the notroll handle, this was in response to the alarmists who were shouting 'fire! flood! web stalker!' (troll) when i first posted my offer to reply to emails, and my km11 fan handle was banned by khun sanuk. we came to an agreement, but i don't think the km11 handle has been un banned. i'm trying to abide by khun sanuk's rules as they're revealed. thai home fan & fat*; i'm not obsessed, it's merely an opinion, and information, on one subject. pattaya is better to live in, km11 is better for the quality of the experience, the girls aren't in a hurry to run off and give the money to their waiting boyfriends, or to go and buy amphetamines. the km11 girls are content to 'BE THERE WITH YOU', instead of wanting to be somewhere else. the km11 girls are willing to get into it with you, enjoy themselves and feel good, instead of being cold, mechanical and distant. the km11 girls never ask for more money, or come up with stories about 'papa die, mama sick, buffalo die, house burn down, sister in motorcycle accident, etc. it's generally accepted that presenting a balanced perspective is healthy, allowing both pros and cons to be expressed. check the 'peeves' post in general discussion. some of the posters are insulting to thais, and advocate aggression, without being censored. (dan, member 962, calls taxis 'turds', 'lazy pricks', and refers to 'their grubby little hands'. scumbaggio member 91, refers to thais on the sky train as 'buffalo riding peasants'.) i haven't talked about anyone but prostitutes, and their greedy ways and lack of good service. i let people know there's an alternative available. i'll tell you something about my attitude on thailand: i use the computers in the telephone facility. every morning at 8am, they play the national anthem. i always stop and stand facing the portrait of the king. some thais do the same, many don't. it doesn't hurt me to take a moment and pay respect to the nation. i don't move to cambodia because it's not a place i would want to live. and if i did, i would still have access to this board, fyi, the internet is not restricted by international bounderies. and, thanks for your polite invitation to deny myself freedom of speech, but like a guest who tells another guest to leave a host's house, you don't have the authority. only khun sanuk can do that, and i'm gradually learning how to avoid irritating him. pattaya127; it's not the price at km11, it's the quality of experience, as i've expounded on above. i'm not interested in giving a xxx account of my personal couplings, only an overview of advice for people who want to visit km11. this grew out of xerox hand outs i would give to friends that were going there, and i put it into a file to share with a larger audience. i have never advocated or promoted child prostitution, or debt bondage, or compulsion by torture. i have advised pewople to avoid children, and to avoid girls who seem to be reluctant. those who think freelancers are not under compulsion could be fooling themselves. not being in a house doesn't mean a woman doesn't have someone waiting to demand the money and abuse her for not producing. flyboy; i don't do anything unusual, just the regular missionary position. i treat the girls nice and with respect, and they generally take any expression of kindness as a sign of weakness, or as a matter of course generally try to pump every customer for as much as they can get, irregardless of what they've agreed to. no one has responded; is it acceptable to agree to one price and then try to extort double that amount? and, as far as being cheap, just how much should be paid for a short time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 6, 2001 Report Share Posted July 6, 2001 Sorry to further deviate into the donut tangent . . . quote: Try to find a donut shop in SF where the clerk ISN'T a beautiful young Cambodian woman! There's a persistent rumour in my old home town about a Cambodian donut-shop mafia... I remember reading about the Cambodian donut shop sydicate in the local newspaper (SF Chron or Exam) years ago. The interesting comment in that article that I can't forget everytime I enter the Cambodian donut shop is that they themselves find the attraction of the donuts to be perplexing. I don't know Cambodian tastes but I've found the Thai taste for sweetness (e.g. canned ice coffee, pastries) to be equally mysterious. Oh well, it may be for the better that SE Asian girls don't develop taste for donuts. Apologies to all for prolonging this sidetrack. Ciao! micsnee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted July 7, 2001 Report Share Posted July 7, 2001 quote: Originally posted by db_sez_aloha: [QB] Originally posted by pattaya127: [QBTotally out of topic, maybe: There is this donut shop in SF,where the clerk is a beautiful cambodian young woman (married, sob,sob). QB] Yes, totally, but... Try to find a donut shop in SF where the clerk ISN'T a beautiful young Cambodian woman! There's a persistent rumour in my old home town about a Cambodian donut-shop mafia... Any chance you're referring to a particular shop in the Inner Richmond? If so, I bet her name starts with a "K"... Yes,there are, unfortunately. mafia is a bit strong of a word for donut money laundering, LOL. She is on Polk St and Pine. saw her from afar last Saturday: smiling as ever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7, 2001 Report Share Posted July 7, 2001 Flyonzewall, Thanks for the reply. From what I've seen you are right about all the different systems coexisting in the same brothels, both debtcontract and girls who have paid off their debt and chosen to stay on. You say the really bad cases of abuse are kept out of sight, well that's where I can't comment as I obviously never saw anything like that. I believe you when you say you saw it however, was this at Km11? If you don't mind me asking, what exactly did you see? And when was this? You are right about taking advantage of indentured prostitution because it is endemic there, but I don't go to Cambodia because they have that system, I go because the girls' attitudes are great, they are not at all mercenary, because the scene, the farang scene is in it's infancy and the girls are not, for the most part, jaded yet. I would be happier if all the girls were simply employees as is mostly the case in the farang scene in LOS, not debtcontracted. But I don't want to boycott the entire scene in Cambodia because there is in some cases abuse behind the scenes. For me, as long as the girls I'm with are happy, what else can I do short of abstaining from sanuk altogether? As you mentioned already in previous posts, this system's days are numbered, although things happen slowly in Cambodia. About the whisky-drinking papa coercing his Thai daughter into the bar, well that was just an analogy of course, I know that in the farang scene debtcontracts etc. are quite rare. Thanks for a little insight anyway, I do accept you have the need to inform people what things are like in Cambodia, I suppose a lot of guys wouldn't even know about debtcontracts really. I just think that armed with that information, everyone is free to make their own decisions. You obviously have stricter views on this than me, but we can't agree on everything! I appreciate you have the best of intentions, and I actually agree with most of what you say, I just wouldn't take it quite as far as you, perhaps. Cheers, DJ1999J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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