Steve

I will say this about Newt. Recently, he's come under fire for supposedly wanting to bring back child labor and break child labor laws. I saw what he said and it is taken out of context. He was discussing inner city jobs and said it may be best to offer the job of janitorial work in the schools to the poor students than to a unionized janitor. I can see the logic in that. One of the best things for teens in the inner city is to see what its like to get a paycheck. Janitors in some of these school districts are getting paid well over 50k a year or more because they've been in the job for a long time. Its a cushy job. A case can be made for either. That janitor probably lives in the inner city and raised a family, bought a house and car on that salary so although we may not like paying a guy 50k a year to clean a school the residual benefits of that wage probably did more good than bad. Of course on the other hand provding a source of income for inner city kids and perhaps keeping them from gangs and drugs by instilling a work ethic and a paycheck will have residual benefits as well. That said, I looked at Gingrich's economic plan and its pretty much the basic Republican mantra. Cut capital gains and corporate rates. Drill anywhere you want. Cut regulations so companies can do whatever they want. He wants a flat tax as an alternative as well. That will have holes as well. I think he's a smart guy. I just don't agree wtih his policies or politics. I don't care about his personal life. If he wants to bang two women thats his issue as long as it doesn't affect his job. Both the French and Italian leaders have mistresses and banging anything that moves and they're doing their job. Finally NONE of the Republican leaders address health care. All they can say is repeal Obamacare as some mantra and offer NOTHING of consequences instead. Over 60 percent of Americans who file a BK do so for health cost reasons. If that isn't an urgent matter I don't know what is. However, they offer NOTHING. Why? The health care industry owns them. Pure and simple. The Health Savings Plan thingy is a crock of shit. Poor and working class can't possibly save enough for catostrophic events. They parrot the health care industry with this 'best medical care in the world' bullshit while those of us on this forum from America go to Thailand to have medical work done and its also why medical tourism to places such as India and Thailand is booming and has been for some time. That is a great system? They demonize nationalized health care as if its straight out of the communist manifesto. We have the great advantage of seeing what other nations have done right and wrong with national healthcare but the very notion is demonized.

Exactly. I would have no problem changing my vote from Obama if Paul was the candidate. I know he's not everyon'es cup of tea so I'll offer Gary Johnson. Read about him. 2 term governor or New Mexico where Democrats are 2-1 over Republicans. He balanced their budget, he wants to legalize pot. He's pro choice. He's as honest as they come, self made mulit-millionaire, NOT bought off by the special interest. Its one of the reasons he's NOT a favorite of the Republican heirarchy since they're all bought off. Huntsman is reasonable as well. Romney has NO concrete plan other than the conservative mantra and even that is said in broad strokes. I swore off the Republican party in '08 and I see no evidence that they will even do what they say. Reagan ended with a deficit and we became a debtor nation for the first time under Reagan but he's hailed as the greatest president in history. Bush gave us the deficit as well. They preach one thing, get in office and do another. Deficits and overspending is fine as long as we're fighting wars that profit the military/industrial complex and big oil. Its so much utter and complete BS and I'm angry at myself for not seeing it all earlier. The Dems are no prize. I'm aware of that. I'm officially independent but will go with a Dem over a Republican in almost all cases these days. As for Perry, let me tell you about Texas. I heard this once and its accurate. A Texan Democrat is more conservative than a New York Republican. Its so true. I recall Bush saying he worked with Dems while a governor. The whole state is right of center and any Dem who wants statewide office has to be at a minimum right down the middle. All I hear from conservatives is what Obama is doing wrong and I don't hear what their man will do. Republicans are masters of public opinion. Gotta give them that. What will Romney actually do? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/us/politics/07romney.html?pagewanted=all "repealing President Obama’s health care law, cutting the corporate tax rate, placing sanctions on China as a currency manipulator and immediately reducing taxes on savings and investment by the middle class.." also.. "...his economic plan is a classic Republican blueprint that relies on tax cuts and reduced regulation — not stimulus — to jump-start the economy" and "..he promised to immediately cut the corporate income tax rate, currently topping out at 35 percent, to 25 percent." This is BS. Cutting taxes will make rich companies richer. In the article economists state that there has never been proven historically that it creates jobs. I've said ad nauseum on this thread that its NOT high taxes that are stopping companies from hiring, its no faith in the short and long term future of the economy as a whole. As for sanctions of China? WTF?!! Insane. Reducing regulations is needed in some areas. However, if we can go by Repubican history its to let companies do all kinds of shit. For instance, ability to drill for oil in the Gulf waters as well as build a pipeline through the middle of the country, regs to make it easier to drill for coal, oil , shale oil and depending on how 'green' you are, its not a great idea. We need to LESS dependent on oil NOT more. None of his plans involve infrastructure and that makes Obama's idea infinitely better than Romney's. Infrastructure spending amongst other things is a no brainer. It ticks off all the boxes. It creates American jobs for American companies, working class and middle class jobs, the REAL people who jump start the economy because they have to buy the groceries, cars, household appliances, houses, etc. that companies need. Also, its needed. There are so many tunnels, bridges and the like that are in desparate need of repair but infrastructure spending is also high tech needs as well so there are jobs for technical, white collar folks as well

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/21/opinion/how-china-can-defeat-america.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all How China Can Defeat America

I don't think America can accomplish much with only 2 parties. I think a 3rd party has to emerge to force some things. Maybe a 3rd party will only make things worse. Its possible but if a true 3rd party could emerge that was NOT bought by the special interest it may reverse some things. The root of everything is that both parties are given marching orders by special interests. Some have been 'Stockholm'd' to the point where they see the wants as the special interest as ideology. So much of the bills that go through the Congress is written by special interest groups for the Congresspersons to argue on their behalf and they are given talking points. Obama made a huge mistake initally for not concentrating on what the country needed at the time. A President who was going to concentrate on improving the economy and creating jobs. The Health Care bill could have waited. It should have waited. The Republicans didn't help. Why should they? The unwritten rule is who ever is in the White House gets the credit or the blame so why help unless there is some way they can get part or all of the credit? The said truth as I see it (and I hope and pray I am completely wrong) is that pretty much nothing will save us. Two significant things happened this decade that should have given us a kick in the ass to get our house in order and do some things right: 9/11 and '08 Prime Mortgage/Financial Crisis. Our response (from our leadership) has been almost treasonous. We used 9/11 to enter wars and take away civil liberties. We used the financial crisis to save those that caused it and left the ones most hurt by it to suffer. In both cases very powerful institutions benefited greatly.

Obamacare

The refreshing thing about many Dems is that they will be honest about their feelings and criticize each other. Chris Matthews has valid points. During the 8 years of Bush, Republicans did nothing. Many saw the BS, erosion of freedoms and civil liberties and stood idly by. Even the media. The party it seems is more important than the nation. I truly believe maney see the party and the country as the same so being loyal to the Republican party is being a good American and being loyal to America. This painting of Obama as the worst President is inaccurate to be kind. He's not even the worse this century. He put himself in a position where he had to walk on water. He has made mistakes. The conservative mantra has been to transfer the blame of the debt to him instead of Bush. I am very confident that had McCain been elected we'd be in as bad or worse of a situation. The wars would still be going on with much higher participation and that would have soaked up untold billions. bin Laden would all likely still be alive and enjoying life in a Pakistani mansion. All McCain would have done is cut taxes for the rich and they'd be richer than they are now and we'd be seeing more people suffering from cuts to social welfare, medicare and the VA. Its the loss of power NOT the state of the country that has Republicans and conservatives pissed off. The '90s told me that. The country was doing phenominally well so their focus moved to morals. Even dredging up stuff from way back with the Rose law firm thingy. Who cared? Gary Johnson and Huntsman have great records as governors but are overlooked by Republicans. If you can't take Paul, Johnson and Huntsman are great alternatives. Romney or Perry can't hold a candle to these guys. Romney's ONLY value for them is that he polls well against Obama.

The NASCAR crowd is not one of Obama's niches but they can't say he didn't send someone. Actually, I know who both are...lol. Eartha Kit was once the catwoman on the campy Batman series. The re-runs was on this UHF (remember those?) channels as a kid. She also had a bit part in an Eddie Murphy movie called Boomerang (good movie btw). LadyBird Johnson, I'm a bit of a presidential historian so I know who the first ladies are for the most part. Don't know any thing of note about her. Eartha kit was dead wrong for doing that. Respect the position if you can't the person. Just like ranked officer in the military. Respect the rank, if not the person.

Its disrepsectful. Whoever was booing. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was after reading the headlines. As much as I hated Bush and Cheney I never would have booed them or their wives. Maybe I'm a bit too old school. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/first-lady-booed-nascar-race-213624075.html First Lady booed at NASCAR race

LOL..this guy is a joke. Who is he? He's trying to be the black Rush Limbaugh and say controversial things?

Michelle becomes cheerleader. She does the position of Firs Lady proud. She's intelligent, commands respect and a great role model. Laura Bush came off as a very sweet lady herself. There is a line with wives on the campaign trail. Its a fine one. They are off limits IF they don't cross a certain line. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/18/us/politics/michelle-obamas-mission-energizing-the-campaign.html?_r=2&hpw

I think both (cuts and spending) are necessary. Targeted cuts are needed. I don't agree with the slash and burn, scorned earth conservative view of cutting government spending. There are programs that not only don't need to be cut but increased. Waste and redundency in any area needs to be cut. The private sector is simply not hiring. Its not because of high taxes and oppressive reguations either (although certain industries and niches can stand some changes). No, companies are pocketing the profits and not expanding due to a pessimistic view of the future the economy. Massive government spending on infrastructure would create American jobs in American companies and provide millions of blue collar and middle class jobs. Boths bricks and mortar jobs like bridges, tunnelss, high speed train lines and roads as well as higher tech jobs like high speed internt access for the rest of the country, green jobs as well. Incentives to convert our economy from an oil based one to hybrid cars. Encourage keeping dollars in America instead of spending it on overseas traveling by lowering and in some cases eliminating fees for use of national parks and places like the smithsonian, etc. Encourage the states to do it as well and promote the hell out of it such as the widely successful 'I love New York' ad campaign of the '70s and '80s. Make these places 'family friendly' by having a 'family package' pricing as well as for school trips with 'school trip package' pricing. Provide tax incentives for private tourist destinations such as disneyland, etc. for family and school trip pricing reductions. Reduce tourist visa fees and promote American tourist destinations to Europe and Asia. Form a true government/private sector parnership for tourism with cross-promotional packages that would see a one fee package for hotel and sites to various cities and tourist attractions. Promote it on overseas tv. Statue of Liberty, Disneyland/World, national parks, Hawaii. Airlines, hotels can get promoted at our embassies as well as online if they participate in this tourism packaging push in a one stop tourism package. Combine all this with a massive reduction in overseas miitary bases and troops. These expenditures in tax breaks, reductions, domestic spending will cost but the combination of spending cuts and the revenue that the new jobs will provide should, over time, see higher consumer spending and encourage companies to spend more on hiring because they have a rosier outlook on the future.

One wee bit of a thread of hope the USA may survive afterall. http://news.yahoo.com/patriotic-millionaires-beg-supercommittee-higher-taxes-185620525.html 'Patriotic Millionaires' Beg Supercommittee for Higher Taxes Two dozen wealthy members of the group Patriotic Millionaires for Fiscal Strength are targeting members of the deficit "supercommittee" to increase their taxes.

Land of the formerly free and home of the apathetic Congress still considering Internet censorship! http://www.tgdaily.com/opinion-features/52530-congress-still-considering-internet-censorship

Extremely sad and disconcerting to see a Democratic President continuing the erosion of our civil liberties. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/11/us-verdict-privacy-wikileaks-twitter

I grabbed and kissed Warren Buffet like that once and it took 500k for him to get the negatives of the pics.

Surprised none of us posted the Penn State child sex story or maybe it was and I didn't see it. Sad...so sad. Heard a sick joke about it though, okay bad taste and I know I will be skewered but '...an older woman who chases young men is called a cougar, an older man who chases young boys is called a Nittany Lion' The assistant coach who caught him should have done more. I know Paterno and all who are involved have history with the alleged perpetrator but c'mon. Maybe its tough to say what I would if I had known the Sandusky for such a long time and worked together for so long but I'm sure I'd have confronted him personally and tell him a) what the fck you doing and this out of friendship, get a lawyer right now, this has to go to the cops. and c) get help now and I'd have had some places in mind. I'm sure there were abused kids where I lived. Some things as a kid you just kinda knew. There was a very close friend of the family that we called our uncle but wasn't a blood uncle who grew up with my uncles who us kids just automatically knew you didn't find yourself alone with. He looked at you 'funny'. There are many such cases where people suspect or have a pretty good idea but all adults do is make sure he's never alone with kids. which isn't always effective.

The media http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl7sWtUu1Fc&feature=share

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/starbucks-drops-bean-surcharge-195519437.html The Seattle coffee company eliminated the fee at its stores nationwide this month after a Massachusetts consumer-protection agency fined the company over the practice. The Massachusetts Office of Consumer Affairs and Business Regulation found in August that the coffee chain failed to notify customers either in the store or on their receipts that it was adding a surcharge of about $1.50 for buying a partial bag of beans. Starbucks allows customers to buy a less than the traditional one-pound bag of beans. But doing so requires an employee to break open a pre-sealed bag to sell customers a portion size of their choosing. Starbucks would then charge the customer for the portion of beans, plus a roughly $1.50 fee to cover the extra labor and packaging That meant beans listed at $11.95 per pound ended up costing $7.45 for a half-pound — not $5.98, or half the price. Under Massachusetts law, retailers are required to post signs in the store notifying customers of surcharges, or employees must tell them. I've always thought if I were to run a company I'd like it to be as honest as possible. Maybe pie in the sky thinking and economic realities would make me do things differently but I'd like to think that I would. I'm a firm believer in reputation and it just seems good business to have a solid reputatin for fairness, etc. Neighborhood stores in my area as a kid were like that. Everyone knew each other and there was an honor code. My mom would send me down to the corner market for meat or whatever with a message to put it on her 'account'. You squared up with him after payday. The grocer knew we all struggled and waited for payday and for some folks, their welfare checks. No one didn't pay, your good name meant everything to you. Those days are long gone now.

The longing for his father is a classic psychological thing. Adopted kids or foster kids go out searching for biological parents that are very imperfect, to use kind words, all the time. My understanding during the campaign was that he was very close to his mother and grandmother. The book seems to note a phase in his life not a lasting feeling. Sons especially feel a need to want to prove themselves to fathers who abandoned them or never believed in them. My oldest brother and father was estranged for a few years after my brother came back from Vietnam. They are as close as ever now.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/14/tom-coburn-30-billion-millionaires-tax-breaks_n_1092692.html Tom Coburn: $30 Billion In Millionaires Aid Is 'Sheer Washington Stupidity'

Cav, the important thing is, is this his view now? If so, then most certainly, one should question whether or not he represents all Americans. However the evidence is that he has a broad spectrum of people, many of whom are Republican and most white. His former chief of staff Jewish. Holder is the only Black of prominence I can think of. My senior year in HS I read Malcolm X's autobiography and started calling myself Rashad Ahmad Sa'id for a few months. I had that similar 'rage' but it was the folly of youth. Anyone who knows me now couldn't imagine that in me I suppose. Obama is firmly establishment. Wall Street money up the ying yang, the make up of his administration, his centrist policies. His actions against moslems suggest he doesn't 'stand with them' in the manner described in your exerpt. I have to view his actions to determine if its so and I don't see it. Not that he couldn't be but I don't see much if any evidence he feels the same. If he does, he should be out. A President represents ALL the people. End of story.

Can you guys finally end your 'love in' with Cain. The man is woefully and I'd say embarassingly unprepared to be President. Great personal story. Seems a man of high principles. I'm not even counting the sexual harrassment issues. Not excusing it but I've worked in corporate america in management and rarely met any man in a managerial position who hasn't made a pass at someone on the job. Myself included. I banged one of my own employees once (Her idea!!! Really..crazy story for another post...maybe the next post). Anyway, it seemed obvious to me the first time I saw him in a debate that he was not Presidential material. As I have said, Commerce head? Sure. No way should he get closer to the white house. He as well as Palin seemed so obvously not prepared that I have to question Republicans. HH buddy, I love ya but c'mon! Repubicans can see through Obama but not Palin and Cain. If ever there were conservative tinted glasses. This is just embarassing. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/14/herman-cain-libya-question_n_1093425.html The best candidates are obviously Huntsman, Johnson and Paul is debatable to some but at least the first two. Huntsman was ruled for having served as China amabassador under Obama. WTF? The position is not an endorsement of Obama's ideology. Its a vital and extremely important ambassadorship and he was asked to serve his country and he did. It shouldn't matter the party.

The question remains. Is Romney an improvement?

Assuming this is true. Is Romney going to be better? The same? Or worse? I think the latter. We really do need 3rd party politics in this country.

HH, glad to hear from you. My guy is okay. He's promoting self determination. I don't like islamist fundamentalist as much as the next guy but people do have a right to self determination. They may make a choice we don't like but they will suffer from exclusion from the world community. You have to give people time to get it right. Supporters of BOTH parties have used personal attacks. OWS is a glorious grassroots movement. Reminds me of another movement. hehe. Romney has no idea HH. The Republican party refuses to support the best candidate. They only support the candidate that can win. You and I know that often times doesn't equate to the same. Obama seemed the best candidate to Dems at the time in '08 which I give them credit for. Hillary would have whupped McCain's ass in a general election. Dems voted with the guy that they deemed the best. Huntsman, Johnson and Paul are miles better the field. Surprisingly they are the ones the Republican powers that be don't want. Says it all really, which is why I still can't support the party.