Proper Thai?

[Guest]

Hi! Though an utter newbie still trying to get hang of Thai script on my own, I've been fascinated by the discourse in "cunning linguists" and other threads, especially Prof. Scum's posts on Sanskrit/Pali connection.

I just went through the Thai "R" character vagraries in my textbook, with explanation that these vagraries occurred in many words originating in Sanskrit/Pali. Uummm, not so simple but then English is also full of these vagraries (why "p" in "psychic"?; why "infant" but not "elefant"? etc.)

So my questions (just for curiosity sake):

Do Thai scholars (in the classic sense) study Sanskrit/Pali in the similar way that English and European scholars study Greek/Latin and Japanese study Chinese?

Do the Buddhist monks use Sanskrit (I think this is the mother tongue of Buddhism)?

Noting that the language used by the royalty relies heavily on Sanskrit terms, do the court people study Sanskrit?

I'm just curious, thanks.

Ciao!

micsnee

[Guest]

Originally posted by micsnee:

Thanks for elevating me to the lofty level of an "achaarn" or professor!

 

Your questions:

"Do Thai scholars (in the classic sense) study Sanskrit/Pali in the similar way that English and European scholars study Greek/Latin and Japanese study Chinese?"

Only if their subject demands it. So, a Buddhist scholar would certainly need a high proficiency in Pali, whereas say somebody specialising in economics would possibly not know a thing about it.

Thai males who get ordained as monks for a period of time do study some Pali, but their knowledge usually doesn't go very deep.

"Do the Buddhist monks use Sanskrit (I think this is the mother tongue of Buddhism)?"

The Buddhist language is Pali, a direct descendant of Sanskrit; but just like Sanskrit is only used in Hindu prayers and ceremoniens, Pali is only in use inside Buddhist temples. Both languages are what they call "dead" languages (just like Latin), though there are a couple of villages in India in which the inhabitants make it a point to converse in Sanskrit, in a heroic attempt at reviving the language. That's a tricky endeavour, since they have to create many new words, such as for modern inventions. Try making up a word for microwave oven in Sanskrit!

Sanskrit words usually change by a predictable pattern into their Pali counterparts. Sanskrit "karma" becomes Pali "kamma", "dharma" becomes "dhamma" etc. I have mentioned more such examples in some other language thread.

"Noting that the language used by the royalty relies heavily on Sanskrit terms, do the court people study Sanskrit?"

The royal family certainly will, so do the court Brahmins, which traditionally are in charge of royal ceremonies. If you want to meet the Brahmins go to a Hindu temple called Bot Prahm ("Brahmin Temple") near Wat Suthat and the Giant Swing. There are only about half a dozen of these Brahmins left. They dress in white, wear their long hair tied up in a knot and are supposed to be vegetarians. From personal observation I can vouch that they are certainly carnivore. Ask the food vendors near their temple!

The court Brahmins first lived in Nakhon Si Thammarat, having come over from Cambodia (to where their ancestors had migrated from Southern India).

It was during the Ayutthaya period (if I remember correctly) that they were called to the Thai court.

Ah yes, and as you've called me a professor or "achaarn" and are interested in the Sanskrit connection: "achaarn" is another of those innumerable Thai words hailing from Sanskrit. The Sanskrit version is "acharya" and the word is also still used in Hindi.

Happy studies, SB

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ]

[Guest]

Thanks for your post, Achaarn Scum.

quote:

---

Thanks for elevating me to the lofty level of an "achaarn" or professor!

---

No problem sir! In fact I hold you in the highest esteem reserved heretofore only to another titan, Khun Slimey Toad. (What exalted company!!!)

Seriously, to someone with hardly a knowledge about the Indian influences in this part of the world, it is somewhat bewildering that there would be a strong Hindu presence in the court of a devout Buddhist nation. But perhaps this is somewhat analogous to the Judaic-Christian-Moslem relationship. I've now become more curious about the cultural background and will start searching for good reading materials.

Although I've leapt into LOS for sanuk, I'd like to thank Khun Sanuk for setting up a forum like this where both sanuk and these esoteric discussions do take place and also Achaarn Scum and all the others for making this an intellectually fun place as well.

Ciao!

micsnee

[Guest]

Originally posted by micsnee:

Thanks for the flowers. But I'think I'll have to check out Slimey Toad's posts to properly assess the accolades ...

Anyhow, some more:

Quote: "To someone with hardly a knowledge about the Indian influences in this part of the world, it is somewhat bewildering that there would be a strong Hindu presence in the court of a devout Buddhist nation."

Buddhism only became the state religion towards the end of the 14th century. Before that, the region was largely under the sway of Hinduism, as the numerous Hindu monuments in Isaan (of Khmer heritage) prove.

Even today, Thai Buddhism is really a mixture of animism, Hinduism and Buddhism. Actually, Buddha - who refuted the Hindu Vedas and spoke out against any kind of ritual - wouldn't like a lot of things which are performed in his name in Thailand.

The extent to which Thailand, and its royals, were influenced by Hinduism is well demonstrated by their naming one of their capitals "Ayutthaya" - after Ayodhya, the mythological birth-place of Hindu god Rama in Northern India.

Well, maybe the name was also supposed to be a good omen, as it translates as "not to be warred upon"; but that didn't keep the Burmese from sacking it.

The royal Thai dynasty is called Chakri Dynasty, after the symbolic discus (chakra) of god Vishnu; and the Thai kings bear the title Rama (Rama being another manifestation of Vishnu). The connections are endless.

If you check out Thai town names you'll find that scores of them are Sanskrit-derived, and many Thai superstitions, customs, and arts can be traced back to Indian sources. Etc., etc.

I guess, you'll have plenty of fun with this subject.

Cheers, SB.

[elef]

Hi,

Buddha was a hindu. Same as Jesus was a jew.

You can regard buddhism as an developed form of hinduism.

(Of course same with christianity compared to judaism. Moslems see islam as an more enlightened form of judaism and Jesus as the biggest moslem prophet next to Mohammed.)

This gives a platform of understanding how cultures are formed by predecessors.

So the historical cultural development in Thailand is much influenced from India and hinduism.

Of course the western civilization started to influence Thailand from imperialism to neoliberal capitalism today. In modern thai words you see the impact today and in 200 years maybe words in thai having english origin is more common than having sanskrit background.

elef

[Guest]

Originally posted by elef:

"Buddha was a hindu. Same as Jesus was a jew.

You can regard buddhism as an developed form of hinduism."

I agree to this only up to a point. Of course, Buddha was born into a Hindu family, but the school of thought that he set up directly contradicts Hinduism in several ways:

Hinduism has 330 million gods (no, I'm not making this up!)

- Buddhism has none.

Hinduism is largely ritualistic, beginning with the Vedas, which are full of incantations, magic rites etc. - Buddhism, at least as far as Buddha intended, should be devoid of any ritual.

One fundamental pillar of Hinduism is the caste system

- there are no castes in Buddhism (at least as as Buddha's teachings go; in Sri Lankan Buddhism a caste system does exist).

Hinduism has countless different paths leading to liberation, which can even completely contradict themselves (for example, the adherents of the so-called "left-handed path" purposely practice what mainstream Hinduism forbids, but are nevertheless regarded as Hindus)

- Buddhism on the other hand lays down a very unambiguous, relatively simple "eight-fold" path for its followers.

Hinduism and Buddhism both propound the idea of reincarnation and karma, and their views on final liberation are similar; there is mukti or moksha for the Hindus, nirvana for the Buddhists.

So, there are some similarities, but also very fundamental differences, and I'm not sure one can describe Buddhism as a "developed form of Hinduism".

But then there are at least as many points of view as there are gods in Hinduism.

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ]

[Guest]

Thanks for further enlightenment Achaarn Scum.

I'm quite sure that you will be impressed by the meticulous research conducted by the esteemed Khun Slimey on a totally different subject matter.

And thanks elef for your post too.

In my naive view I was under the supposition that Hindu and Buddhism clashed with each other -- outwardly the styles seem so opposite. But upon reflection it seems natural for cultures to co-opt the best of different flavors into a unique system.

While I'll continue to fret over the rising prices at NEP and the effect of globalization on stunner availability, I'll be looking forward to more of these types of postings too. Besides it gives me further justification for my future trips to LOS. Thanks again.

Ciao!

micsnee

[elef]

Hi S-B and micsnee,

I think we take this discussion over a beer in august.

Since many years I describe myself as hindu. Hinduism is not a normal religion becauce there in nothing which is in common for every hindu.

Normally people say that every hindu believe in cow, cast and charma (kharma), but this is not true – in fact hinduism is more of a philosophical system than a relgion - but the oldest existing religious system in the world.

There are hindues believing in

-millions of gods.

-Allah and his prophet Mohammed.

-Jesus Christ.

-Buddha as the only god

-atheism (which in fact was Buddhas own belief)

My religious belief you can find in Bhagavadgita (sanskrit for Song of the Lord). Nothing in that book contradict Buddhas teachings and I usually in LOS describe myself as some sort of buddhist.

elef

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: elef ]

[Guest]

Originally posted by elef:

"I think we take this discussion over a beer in august."

No problem. I'll in Bangkok in the first half of August (then two quick trips to India and Europe).

"Hinduism is not a normal religion becauce there in nothing which is in common for in fact hinduism is more of a philosophical system than a relgion - but the oldest existing religious system in the world."

Hinduism is indeed the most encompassing religion on the planet, for better and (sometimes) also for worse. It's a way of life into which some very contradicting beliefs can fit in. Hinduism absorbed many tenets and ideas from from the culture of Harappa, from the Dravidic cults of Southern India, and from Jainism and Buddhism.

"There are hindues believing in

......... Buddha as the only god"

Hmmm, this is a very tricky subject. Do you know that in the early phase of Buddhism, Hindus burned down Buddhist temples and killed Buddhist monks? After all, Buddhism was "competition". When pressed to find a solution to the Buddhist "problem", the Hindu clerics came up with a brilliant idea:

They declared Buddha the ninth incarnation of Vishnu, the one which leads evil people astray and pushes them onto the path to hell. Buddha being equated with Vishnu, Buddhism suddenly had no more raison-d-etre and virtually disappeared from India.

So the relationship of Hinduism and Buddhism was not always quite as amicable as it may seem.

Hinduism did absorb one major tenet of early Buddhism (and Jainism): the principle of "ahimsa" or non-violence, which logically entailed vegetarianism.

These days Hindus like to present themselves as the inventors or vegetarianism, but they're not - they only embraced it as not to appear too barbaric in comparison with the new religions of Buddhism and Jainism (both founded around the same time). Early Hindus happily ate cows and buffalos and even sacrificed them in rituals. One Sanskrit word for "guest" is "go-ghana", literally, "the one for whom a cow is slaughtered".

Today's Hindus are mostly blissfully unaware of all these cultural by-gones.

[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ]

[Sukhumvit]

Hinduism seems to be a fairly strange (from a Western secular viewpoint) religion. In Nepal, the only officially Hindu state, they have a system of appointing a living goddess called a Kumari.

They take a 4 year old girl and study her for signs of divinity. Such studies include leaving her in a room overnight with the severed heads of buffaloes and goats to see what her reaction will be. Once they select a suitable child then she will be worshipped and not allowed to do anything until she reaches puberty when a new Kumari will be chosen.

After being a living goddess apparently it's quite difficult to adjust to 'normal' life again. Many Kumaris cannot find husbands as it is believed that the husband of a Kumari will die an early death. Thus they tend to live single lives with difficulty in finding normal work. In order to sustain them they are apparently paid a pension of approximately £30 per month. There are now 8 living former Kumaris.

Dunno the origins of this. Just a bit of useless info on a sleepy Wednesday night.