Grabii Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 PhordPhan et.al., Thai women in general are not denied B2 visas to the USA because they might be prostitutes. They are denied these visas because, as a group, they have a history of entering the USA and not leaving again. What they may or may not do while they are in the USA is not the concern. The concern is that they enter as non-immigrants and then stay. Regards, JEff quote: Originally posted by PhordPhan: You know, it's interesting that Thai women have a difficult time coming to this country because the might be prostitutes, and we can't have that, can we? But, any rag-head terrorist with an axe to grind can waltz in here on a student visa, no problem. Somebody's priorities are seriously f***ed up. When's the last time a Thai hooker hijacked an airplane or bombed a building? PhordPhan [ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: JEff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabii Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 HSTeach, I agree with your comments with one exception, and that is the issue of money in the bank. I believe that what they consular officers are looking for is evidence that the visa applicant has the financial means to acccomplish the proposed visit to the US. This could come from the applicant's own money in the bank, but it could also come from a sponsor. The problem with this alternate source of funding is that there must be compelling ties between the sponsor and the applicant that lends credibility to the sponsors offer of support. When the applicant is a young single woman, and the benefactor is a single man, compelling ties between the two raises the real possibility of a marriage in the USA and a reasonable expectation that the applicant may not return to Thailand. Money in the bank, whether new or old, is hardly an indication that a visa applicant has ties to Thailand that would compel them to return. Money, even very large amounts of money, can be removed from a bank account very easily and quickly. As quick as the visa applicant can get to the bank after receiving their visa, for example. See the DOS Foreign Affairs Manual Section 9 FAM 41.31 N2.1, N2.2, and N2.6. See also 9 FAM 41.31 N2.3, N2.4, and N2.5. I suspect that this is where many visa applicants put forth a weak case. Some serious effort in these areas could improve the odds of success from negligible to possible. Regards, JEff quote: Originally posted by HSTEACH: The INS has nothing to do with visitor's visa to the US. They are issued by the State Dept in Bangkok. The INS only deals with matters concerning immigration. She would have to prove she has a compelling reason to return to Thailand. Factors include, type of job she has, amount of old money she has in the bank, amount of property she owns,as in land, house, etc. This is not an easy thing to do. Probably less than 25% of visitor's visas are approved. If she cannot convince the consular officer she WILL return, the visa will be denied. It seems you have an uphill battle with one, I wish you luck. [ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: JEff ] [ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: JEff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabii Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Bob, You are quite correct that the INS officers at the POEs have the responsibility and the authority to deny entry to someone who they believe is excludable even though that person holds a valid visa for entry into the USA. I have had no experience taking a Thai girlfriend or wife to any country other than the USA, so I cannot comment on your experience in Hong Kong other than to point out the obvious - Hong Kong is not the USA, and it's a lot more accessible to a Thai prostitute who's looking for lucrative work than is the USA. My experience entering the USA with my wife, when she was my girlfriend, is this. The last question we were asked at her B2 visa interview at the embassy in Thailand was "You're not going to get married while you're there, are you?" The first question she was asked by the INS officer at the San Francisco airport was "You're not going to get married while you're here, are you?" There were no questions of any kind on the occasions when she entered the USA as my fiancee and then as my wife. We just sat waiting while they processed the paperwork. I don't believe that Thai women are a significant part of the prostitution 'problem' here in the US. We've got vastly more home-grown prostitutes and prostitutes who have found their way here from places much closer to the US than Thailand. Conversely, there are well-to-do countries much closer to home and easier to enter (illegally if necessary) for a Thai prostitute who wants to earn serious money practicing her trade. I can't comment on Thai prostitutes in Europe. Regards, JEff quote: Originally posted by BobFiveHead: To HSTEACH, I appriciate your view point but this time you are completely wrong. Yes the INS does not issue visas the State Department does, but the state Department is not going to issue a visa to someone that is excludable due to their association with prostitution. Further just because a visa is issued that does not mean the person will be admitted into the United States if she is found to be excludable at the port of entry by the INS. Yes, her American friend and her can lie to the State Department about her past, as I'm sure you did in order to get your wife in the United States, but what will the end result be, as I see it, the erosion of the ethical standers of two people, fraud against the US Government let alone all Americans, and another prostitute in the US. In my opinion, backed by federal law, she should not be allowed into the US. As far as allowing student/terrorists into the country, thats not good either. And as far as foreign prostitutes working in the US and other countries, well first its indentured (sp?) survitude (sp?) which is a bad thing in itself, and second the mere fact that there are so many thai prostitutes all over Europe and the US makes it all the more difficult for for regular thai women to travel overseas. I have passed through Hong Kong about 9 times in the past 8 years and the immigration there never so much as spoke to me, but when I traveled there with my wife, who is from thailand, out came the tickets the hotel reservations the whole nine yards, and why? because all the thai prostitutes that they have to deal with. That's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 From my experience with visa to USA for a thai persons. I think the bottom line is that they need a complling reason to return to thailand once the visa is over. Usually, money ( a lot) in the bank ( and there for some time, not "instantly") young child left in thailand, family, real business, ect. While in the embassy waiting area ( for visa, ect) I did notice some agents with several passports getting visas for students, ect. I hate to think/or admit it, but if you find an "agent" to handle it for you you may have better luck. ( corruption IMHO) But then, finding someone that can do it, and not just say so and take your money is another matter. the bg are not the only ones that will take ur money, u just get more satisfaction from the transaction. ( most of the time anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabii Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Pasa, I too once thought that leaving a child behind in the home country would be good evidence of intent to return from a visit to the USA. However, according to 9 FAM N3.1, a child, spouse, or any other dependent relative left behind is specifically excluded from resolving any doubts that the consular official may have about the applicant's intent to return home. Makes you wonder what kind of evidence of family ties would make a difference in evaluating a visa applicant's intent. Regards, JEff quote: Originally posted by pasathai: From my experience with visa to USA for a thai persons. I think the bottom line is that they need a complling reason to return to thailand once the visa is over. Usually, money ( a lot) in the bank ( and there for some time, not "instantly") young child left in thailand, family, real business, ect. While in the embassy waiting area ( for visa, ect) I did notice some agents with several passports getting visas for students, ect. I hate to think/or admit it, but if you find an "agent" to handle it for you you may have better luck. ( corruption IMHO) But then, finding someone that can do it, and not just say so and take your money is another matter. the bg are not the only ones that will take ur money, u just get more satisfaction from the transaction. ( most of the time anyway) [ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: JEff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhordPhan Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 quote: Originally posted by JEff: PhordPhan et.al., Thai women in general are not denied B2 visas to the USA because they might be prostitutes. They are denied these visas because, as a group, they have a history of entering the USA and not leaving again. What they may or may not do while they are in the USA is not the concern. The concern is that they enter as non-immigrants and then stay. Regards, JEff [ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: JEff ] Hi, Jeff Fair enough. But if you're gonna be hard-nosed for one you should be hard-nosed for all. Stories abound lately of people, mostly middle-eastern, getting student visas with as little as 48-hour turn-around. Unheard of for others. It seems that Jersey is full of Arabs who like it there and don't wanna go home. In my neck of the woods there are several million Mexicans who don't wanna leave either. I'd just like some consistency or, lacking that, tighter restrictions on those most likely to cause harm to the American society as a whole. PhordPhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabii Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 PhordPhan, Getting a student visa for a Thai woman wasn't the question that was asked, and I haven't looked into student visa processing. But I do know 2 young, single Thai women at the University of Wisconsin who are in the USA on student visas. They had no problems getting those visas to the best of my knowledge. I've seen but a few immigrant middle-easterners here in central New Jersey. All of them work in gas stations, and since they're working I have to presume that they are immigrants. Don't know how they got in, but again the question was about a B2 tourist visa, not immigration. We are also loaded with hispanics here, though surely not as many as you have Mexicans in LA. These are virtually all immigrants or seasonal workers on H visas, not tourists who overstayed their B2 visas. I'll bet that few of the Mexicans you have in LA arrived on B2 visas. They either immigrated or arrived on H visas, or they snuck across the border illegally. I'll also bet that you'd be overloaded with Thais and that Mexicans would be complaining about how hard it is to get a B2 visa if the USA had a large common border with Thailand and Mexico was 6000 miles away across the Ocean. In other words, the root difference between Mexicans and Thais getting into the USA isn't visa restrictions, it's geography. Regards, JEff quote: Originally posted by PhordPhan: Hi, Jeff Fair enough. But if you're gonna be hard-nosed for one you should be hard-nosed for all. Stories abound lately of people, mostly middle-eastern, getting student visas with as little as 48-hour turn-around. Unheard of for others. It seems that Jersey is full of Arabs who like it there and don't wanna go home. In my neck of the woods there are several million Mexicans who don't wanna leave either. I'd just like some consistency or, lacking that, tighter restrictions on those most likely to cause harm to the American society as a whole. PhordPhan [ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: JEff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 JEFF: From my own experience and feelings about dealing with the embassy in Bkk, I think they have some discression in granting visas, but ( I don't really like saying this, but..) because they have some say/power in the matter, I think they abuse it. also, if it is a thai person trying to get the visa, they seem to have to deal with thai ppl at employed ( empowered?) by the U.S. embassy,and sometimes ( from what has happend to us) they never let the applicant get very far. agin, I don't really like to say it, but I think using an "agent" to get things done may be the way to go. ( corruption, or just knowing the routine, who can say for sure) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabii Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Pasa, The consular officials don't have some discretion in granting B2 visas, they have complete discretion. The burden of proof is on the visa applicant to convince the official that (s)he will return to Thailand. There is certainly room for abuse of their authority by a hard-nosed official. Their goal is to minimize the number of approved visa applicants who fail to return. The easy way to achieve that goal is to not approve the visas in the first place. There is also room for abuse by the Thai nationals who are employed by the embassy and who do the initial screening of the application documents when they are first presented at the window before being passed on the the consular official who will consider the application. The screener who inspected my wife's B2 visa application removed some of the documentation that we had provided, because I had thought it relevant, and handed it back to her. The interviewer never got to see the complete package that I wanted my wife to submit. I agree with an observation made by someone on another board who said that the official's mind is made up before (s)he even interviews the applicant, that the interview is just to confirm and document the decision. Therefore it is essential that the best possible case be thought out and be well presented on the visa application itself. You may well be right that using an 'agent' of some type may be helpful, especially if that agent is experienced, is well known to the consular officials, and is known to be honest. That is, the previous B2 visa applicants who were represented by the agent returned to Thailand as they were supposed to. This may very well require some standard Thai business arrangements between the agent and the Thai staff who are the gate keepers. I don't believe that there are necessarily such arrangements with the interviewing consular officials. Those people's jobs depend on their performance, and any official whose numbers show that their approved visa applicants are not returning will have a lot of explaining to do. If you come across any agents who have a good track record with the embassy, please let me know. In another few months my wife and I will be looking for a way to help her sister get a B2 visa to come visit us. I do not expect that she will be successful. The only point I am disputing in this thread is the assertion that Thai women have their B2 visa applications rejected because it is expected that they are going to the USA to be prostitutes. They are rejected because it is expected that they won't leave the USA and return to Thailand, for whatever reason, and they are unable to develop and present a case that can overcome that expectation. If you want to have any chance at all of getting a visa, you have to address the real issue. Regards, JEff quote: Originally posted by pasathai: JEFF: From my own experience and feelings about dealing with the embassy in Bkk, I think they have some discression in granting visas, but ( I don't really like saying this, but..) because they have some say/power in the matter, I think they abuse it. also, if it is a thai person trying to get the visa, they seem to have to deal with thai ppl at employed ( empowered?) by the U.S. embassy,and sometimes ( from what has happend to us) they never let the applicant get very far. agin, I don't really like to say it, but I think using an "agent" to get things done may be the way to go. ( corruption, or just knowing the routine, who can say for sure) [ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: JEff ] [ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: JEff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhordPhan Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 quote: Originally posted by JEff: I'll also bet that you'd be overloaded with Thais and that Mexicans would be complaining about how hard it is to get a B2 visa if the USA had a large common border with Thailand and Mexico was 6000 miles away across the Ocean. Wow... Overloaded with Thai girls instead of Mexican! What a cool thought. As Shakespeare said... 'tis a consummation devoutly to be wished. PhordPhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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