jasmine Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 I have read so many posts saying that the Thais lie regularly, many lie just to save face, because they do not feel like discussing the problems or don?t want to get involved. I have a few friends, most of them are educated abroad but decided to go back to Thailand, most of them wanted to make a difference. Now we are in the 50s, some retired like me, some just quitted, some just left to work abroad. The ones that stay and still are in the work force have changed the thinking about making the difference, just want to remain until the retirement age at 60. I am not talking about the ones who have enough family money (most of them already left the work force). I am talking about the normal middle class people. I tried to see most of them during my last trip. We talked about the main issues of lying and the pressure not to rock the boat at work. It is the concept of ?kreng jai? which means that ones do not put people in an uncomfortable situation. The concept becomes more intense with the people who are higher in ranks, better economics, better class (hate this word), older and, etc. In the West, especially from my experience of living her over 30 years, 28 years in professional environment, that ?kreng jai? is there as a courtesy so not to embarrass people in public, but if ones are wrong, they are challenged, they are put to right by the majority of people. It is completely opposite in mainstream Thai society, is it the culture based on Buddhism teachings? The teachings I am talking about are that people have their ?karma?. We are born differently, think differently, different opportunities because of ?karma?. My brother, for example, got passed over in promotion many times even though he has worked published, recognized and so on. Turned to be that he had a big mouth (my brother is retired now at age 48 and has his own law office), never acted ?kreng jai?, we gather from some of his ex-bosses. Some of his ex-colleagues mentioned that he should have left things alone even though they were wrong, the wrong people wopuld get their ?karma?. Well, he and I were not raised to watch things without protests. Mind you, not all his ex-bosses were bad, for 25 years of working; he met a couple good ones. We, most Thai women are raised not to bring up ?upsetting? issues, especially with the husbands/BF. Is it why some BGs/ex-BGs never tell that they have Thai husbands/BFs waiting for them? Is it why sometimes we women do not tell the truth or avoiding telling the truth? Many of my GFs are brought up to create an illusion of happiness with our men, because ?Men like illusion of being perfect.? Does this belief make most Thais become dishonest and does it mean that they cannot be taken seriously and that the Thais do not have ?integrity?? I am confused due to, IMO, the upbringing (my Thai family) to tell the truth or not saying anything at all, and from living in the West more than half of my life. For me a communication, especially in a relationship must be base on the truth or it becomes superficial, no deep relationship can be achieved that way. Love to hear your opinions everyone. Jasmine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCgringo Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 I always enjoy your look at Thai society , its something that most of us will never see. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Interesting comments Jas, not so much about a commentary on Thai culture in Thailand but from a Thai native in a completely different world, who has to adapt to different sets of cultural rules and adjust accordingly. The old Thai women I interact with here in the States always make comments on adjustments that they have to make when they interact with their Thai based friends. Sometimes they "hear" comments that they are not exactly "Thai" anymore from these Thailand based Thais. Usually the basis of these comments are the result of them being "outspoken" or vocalizing their feelings about situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torrenova Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Living with my girlfriend I have started to pick up on the small things which she does not like or which upset her, not just in our life but in life in general both inside and outside work. I think she posesses the same traits you mention of not wanting to face something or deal with certain situations, believing that somehow, everything will be allright and those who did bad will somehow reap their just rewards. Unfortunately, all these little things have a habit of building up under the surface and then perhaps exploding. My living with her has meant that I can encourage her to be more open and talk about things. I think this has had a positive effect as she has seen how a small problem can be diffused by negotiation and largely without confrontation. I do not doubt for a minute that when she goes home to see mama, she is the same girl as before and perhaps only feels more able to confront matters when I'm around. Hopefully, she will become stronger in her own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Thanks, Jaz, very thoughtful and pretty much like i have understood and saw it myself in thailand. Still, I do not think it has to do with Buddhism so precisely. I'd say confucianism might fit as well, but then again, Indonesia carries that kind of behaviour too. I just think altogether, it's because of the millenarium of top-down, pyramidal social/family organization in most asian countries, rarely put in question. There are all kinds of examples attesting to the fact that it is still a very important feature in the social fabric, not just timely kreng jai. Just one: compare the english press treatment of the english royal family and the thai one of their own royal family. Same thing with the people expressing their views on them, without fear of libel in England. We can multiply by 1000s of these examples with other subjects. Free-minded, boat-rocking speakers (like Sulak) always run into problems in Thailand, even have to flee. Seeing this, people refrain and also disapprove of such openness. PS: I am reminded of those japanese hostages in Irak, who were frowned upon in Japan, when freed from the terrorists. The reason was, I think, that they created their situation (karma?), the boat was rocked and the govnmt was forced to deal with problems they brought upon, themselves. Compare again with the welcome hostages would get if spared their lives and returning home in US or France, or Italy, etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmine Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 [color:"red"]Sometimes they "hear" comments that they are not exactly "Thai" anymore from these Thailand based Thais. Usually the basis of these comments are the result of them being "outspoken" or vocalizing their feelings about situations. -------------------- [/color] I have been outspoken all my life, was sent home so many times from school when I was growing for being too inquisitive, outspoken. I have brought this issue (yes, I consider it an issue) because they way powerful people are controlling the country. Work places do not have new ideas because of the systems, leave alone families values. When ones cannot communicate well because of "afraid" and the "kreng jai", face, how can ones develope deep relationship? Jasmine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiLuk Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 >>Many of my GFs are brought up to create an illusion of happiness with our men, because ?Men like illusion of being perfect.?<< :: Your girlfriends are correct of course. --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lembeh Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Having worked in Thailand for several years, I think the propensity for Thai's to lie is one of the most frustrating things here. It is pervasive throughout the culture. My boss is a very highly educated Thai professional, with many years of education in the west. And yet he lies. Often, and often about trivial matters. Why? he's the boss and I am the employee. Why should he need to lie to me?. I suppose in general its "I can't be bothered to deal with this" or "I don't want you to have this". Frankly, over the years I have completely lost respect for him. Lying about matters that are trivial, or can be easily checked on is just stupid. I suppose that if I was a good "thai" employee, I would not call him on it (greng jai I suppose). However, to a farang, he just comes over as pathetic (especially when he can't keep his lies straight.....). Frustrating, and in a work environment, counterproductive.... -j- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardy641 Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 Lying because of feeling ?khreng jai? or just for saving face is very common in Thailand. Your observations are definitely right. It is also more or less accepted in society. However, if asking Thai women what they hate in a relationship most 90% will tell they hate lies the most. This is a clear contradiction to the observation above. The only explanation I have is that Thai accept lies in public but within their family/relationship they prefer to know the truth rather than being told a lie. It is one of the mysteries I guess I will probably never fully understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lazyphil Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 I remember drinking/eating at a Thai place in the UK before I ever went to LOS and the TG boss often put me on the phone to a tgf of hers to speak too, they (boss and girl on the phone) both told me she was in Tenerife then one day told me she never was there but in London :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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