Keg of beer pays for 60 years of protection

[MaiLuk]

Despite 6 refusals, NATO will increase Iraq training staff

By Joel Brinkley The New York Times Friday, December 10, 2004

BRUSSELS The North Atlantic Treaty Organization agreed on Thursday to enlarge from 60 to 300 the number of personnel stationed in Baghdad to train Iraqi soldiers, but not before there was a contentious discussion with the foreign ministers of six countries that refuse to participate.

.

"There is a clear agreement to support Iraq on its way to permanent security and stability," said the NATO secretary general, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer.

 

But he grumbled a bit as he added: "With an international integrated military staff, that means all officers should be able to participate. All of the NATO allies should send people to participate in the operation."

 

Secretary of State Colin Powell of the United States was even more direct.

 

"When it comes time to perform a mission," he said at a news conference, "it seems to us to be quite awkward for suddenly members in that international staff to say I'm unable to go because of this national caveat or national exception."

 

NATO officials said there was a spirited debate over lunch between the foreign ministers of the six countries - France, Germany, Belgium, Greece, Spain and Luxembourg - and those who disagreed with their positions.

 

A senior American official acknowledged that the problem was serious. The Germans, for example, supply a significant portion of the officers on NATO's international command staff.

 

But Joschka Fischer, the German foreign minister, insisted that his country was not going to change its position.

 

"There has been no change of mind," he said. "We will send no German soldiers to Iraq."

 

On Thursday NATO officials also tried unsuccessfully to get members to send more troops to Afghanistan so the organization can expand its operations into the country's western provinces, which the United States has requested.

 

Some officials expressed frustration that not one country agreed, although some said they were considering the request.

 

Initially the NATO staff was to train senior Iraqi military officers inside Baghdad's fortified Green Zone but later Thursday there was an agreement to move the operation to an even more heavily fortified facility to be built just outside the city.

 

De Hoop Scheffer said Poland, Hungary and the Netherlands had agreed to contribute to the newly enlarged force.

 

Powell said the nations refusing to participate are "hurting the credibility and the cohesion of such an international staff or organization," adding, "We think it is a problem and we had a pretty good discussion of it at our lunch."

 

Still, Powell said, the countries that will not send troops felt they had made their positions clear previously.

 

Fischer made the same point, saying, "The German position was made clear in Istanbul," where NATO held a summit last June and agreed on the Iraq-training mission.

 

Still, there was a light moment Thursday - Powell's last NATO meeting as he has resigned as secretary of state - when Fischer gave Powell a case and a keg of beer as part of a running joke.

 

As Powell explained, he had expressed admiration for German flip-top cans and Fischer had sent him a case. "The next time I saw him, since he's a member of the Green Party, I gave him the empties back," Powell said.

 

Powell confirms Bush visit

 

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said that President George W. Bush hoped to use his February trip to Europe to mend relations strained over the Iraq war, Agence France-Presse reported from Paris.

 

Confirming that Bush intends to travel to Europe around Feb. 22, Powell told France 3 television that relations between Washington and Paris had not been as bad as portrayed, but he admitted "there was a major disagreement over Iraq and nobody can paper that over," according to an English translation of the interview supplied by the station.

 

He added: "We have shared values, yes, we have a common destiny to move into the future, and that will always bring us back together."

[carlton68]

MaiLuk,

 

I always thought that politics isn't allowed here and that's why I don't comment on the political dispute about sending troops or not. Just that I find your title for the post very offending. I know two GIs stationed near me and currently fighting in Iraq, both seem to have a more balanced view than you have.

 

About the case of beer (well several over the time) I might add that it is questionable to transport the empties back over such a long way. It's a nice gesture though.

[MaiLuk]

No intention to offend, just highliting an historical irony. Powell framed his comments in terms of germany's nato commitments and diplomatically refrained from bringing up our 60 year friendship.

 

About the two GI's views on this. As a former GI I can say that most are just dumb and most would not agree with German's decision without giving it much thought. If these two are in agreement with Germany than they are probably fairly sophisticated in their outlook and I would like to know their reasoning

 

As for me, I disagree strongly with Germany's decision to not help hence the title.

[Guest]

>>>"When it comes time to perform a mission," he said at a news conference, "it seems to us to be quite awkward for suddenly members in that international staff to say I'm unable to go because of this national caveat or national exception."<<<

 

 

is the man delusional?!

germany has not supported the irak war from day one. why should it now help to get the US out of the mess it brought itself in just because the US demands it.

and the US - german "friendship" got a few major dinks already when fake evidence was presented by powell to try to get germany and france to support its war. when that failed the US has circumvented its opponents and went uniliterally into that war.

 

sorry, but the german population *will* not support any war led by the US in irak. that is democracy. wasn't that what the US is all about - freedom and democracy?

 

 

 

 

 

>>>Powell said the nations refusing to participate are "hurting the credibility and the cohesion of such an international staff or organization," adding, "We think it is a problem and we had a pretty good discussion of it at our lunch." <<<

 

and presenting clearly fake evidence of the mysterious weapons of massdestruction, circumventing a decision of the security council, does not discredit "such an international staff or organisation"?!

 

the only person who is throughly discredited internationally is powell. a man who before his presentation of fake evidence was respected throughout.

 

 

personally, speaking as a german, european, human - bush/cheney/rumsfeld/powel & co can shove their "60 year friendship" up where the sun won't ever shine. germany is better off taking care of the mess the US left in eastern europe so that we can build up our traditional partners in the east again, and leave empire building and idiotic wars to others.

[carlton68]

You must have got me wrong. Those two 'dumb' GIs never took side with germany about not going to Iraq. They could understand why we didn't want to, and at least respected our decision.

And they must be real 'dumb' indeed as they had their own opinions why they have to fight. I am more worried about you.

 

To say it in blunt words: I wouldn't help my best friend to do robbery and murder, not because he's not my friend but because his intentions are wrong. Of course I'd ask myself if this is really a friend. And if he threatens to cancel our friendship, I'd still not help him cover up the mess.

[MaiLuk]

>>why should it now help to get the US out of the mess it brought itself in just because the US demands it.<<

 

Its not a matter of getting the US out of a mess. You are framing the issue wrongly. The help from germany will not be a panacea that will solve the iraq problem and save the US. Iraq needs the help so that the saddam's sunni minority does not succeed in bringing iraq into the dark ages. Standing on the sidelines while the iraq ship sinks and shouting "Its all the US's fault" will not help iraq nor anyone else will it?

 

The US is only asking that Germany commit to a nato mission, and there is no request for German soldiers to go into combat. The US is handling all the dying over there. So can you please send some help?

 

About Powell, he had to make a decision. Powell was privately opposed but was also the secretary of state of an administration already committed to war in iraq. Certainly not an easy position to be in. I believe that his credibility was the reason bush asked him to go to the UN and make the case. Powell felt he had to comply. Would have been strange if the sec of state refused to do his job. Its easy to moralize about these things when we are not feeling any pressure.

 

You can bash all the participants from the us admin, Powell is the only one i would still support and its a loss for everyone that he is resigning.

 

>>personally, speaking as a german, european, human - bush/cheney/rumsfeld/powel & co can shove their "60 year friendship" up where the sun won't ever shine.<<

 

Hmmm... you would toss away 60 years just like that?

[MaiLuk]

I did not say the two GIs were dumb and in fact said the opposite.

 

>>cancel our friendship<<

 

I said nothing about canceling the US/German friendship. Please have another look at my post.

 

>> I am more worried about you. <<

 

Thank you. Not too many worry about me

 

 

>>I wouldn't help my best friend to do robbery and murder, not because he's not my friend but because his intentions are wrong.<<

 

Ahh, this is the crux of the matter. You would not help him commit the crime. But after would you help him find a lawyer? Would you help out his family if it were in your means to do so? Would you give him a blanket if he were in a cold prison cell? Or would you sit around being morally indignant and say to hell with everything he ever did for me I wash my hands of him.

 

Regardless of the right or wrong of the Bush administration's decisions, the fact is americans (and iraqis) are dying over there. We are not pulling out tho that would be a safer thing to do in the short term. There was a time that we died by the hundreds of thousands in europe. Powell, an old soldier, was just asking for some help from old friends.

[Guest]

>>>Iraq needs the help<<<

 

 

yes. irak desperately needs help.

the question though is what form that help might be.

 

it sounds all nice to go and ask countries like germany to commit themselves to a cause they have *never* supported. sorry, nops.

the present US government has proven well enough that it is not willing to listen to any criticism.

under this leadership it would be more than ill advised to get involved.

the US has invaded irak based on fake evidence (it has already stated that their "proof" of WMD might have been "faulty"). basically every single independent conflict research institute has warned not to go to war (as a former soldier i guess you should know that there are highly complex mathematics involved to somewhat judge if any armed intervention might be successful. mathematics the bush government has appearantly thrown over board to lead a war that was already in the planning before 9/11).

 

you get rid of the present US leadership, or find a way that the US government hands the leadership over the troops and the course of action to the UN, and i guess germany and france are far more willing to help.

 

but the US, or you, have no right to ask germany to support a US leadership that has blatantly lied to us, circumvented us, and now, in the shit, wants us to bail them out, without even muttering something like an apology, or better, stepping down.

 

 

 

>>>Powell is the only one i would still support <<<

 

i hope that you might read one day "house of saud - house of bush". after that you might be less impressed with powell.

 

 

 

>>>Hmmm... you would toss away 60 years just like that?<<<

 

sorry, but bush has tossed that friendship away already. see above.

politician and diplomats might not say that in public, but i do know many (some of them family members, some old bording school friends) from most political directions, conservative, social democrats, liberals and greens, and they agree in one point - bush and his clique are madman we have no power to stop, and it would be more madness to get involved with them.

out of sympathy of 9/11 we allowed ourselves to be drawn into the afghanisthan mess, but not irak.

 

germany is doing right now an extremely good job in helping the east to sort the mess out there.

germany is doing a good job to try to support the peace process in israel/syria/palestine due to its unique position having due to the unification in its intelligence community now excellent contacts on both sides, which are also used by both sides.

germany is doing a good job in integrating the EU.

 

but germany is not willing to risk all that just because the US leads an unpopular and unsuccessful agressive war. and that is what irak is. nothing else.

 

if the german government would commit itself to the US now, that would possibly be for me a reason to go back there for a while, and do the same thing again what i did in my youth - i would attend the huge demonstrations, most definately extremely violent, and fight against my government. as i did during the pershing missile stationing under reagan. i don't care if i get hurt again, or put in jail again - but i would not want to stand by.

 

you have no idea how strong the vast majority of germans feels about the irak war. even my dad, his whole life a conservative, and a strong supporter of the US, is absolutely desillusioned about the present US government.

[carlton68]

There you go again:

'nothing back for 60 years of protection; would you sit around being morally indignant and say to hell with everything he ever did for me I wash my hands of him; There was a time that we died by the hundreds of thousands in europe' (that's been a war when we germans were in the wrong big time and I hope we learned a bit out of it).

 

the relationship between the USA and germany has never been a one way street and you know that. Now arguing that we are ungrateful to the US and never give anything back is of course the threat of removing the friendship if we don't comply. It's the same way parents talk to their grown up children when reasons run out.

Talk like that only make matters worse.

 

 

'Regardless of the right or wrong of the Bush administration's decisions, the fact is americans (and iraqis) are dying over there.'

That's right. Putting a few germans in the line of fire would only get some dead germans, nothing else. No need for that. Difficult enough to ask people to risk their ass for a good reason, so why should we send people into a mess we warned you (the US) about?

Helping will be easier if the shooting is over. Only I have as much ideas as the US how to end this - which is absolutely no idea at all.

Germany helps already, didn't you know? We sent some people to the emirates to train iraq soldiers. And we agreed to forget about the better part of iraqs loans in germany. Just we don't want to share the bloodshed as well.

 

'Iraq needs the help so that the saddam's sunni minority does not succeed in bringing iraq into the dark ages.'

Sounds as convincing and trustworthy as 'weapons of mass destruction' or that Saddam was helping Osama Bin Laden (btw, both very good friends of the US until you didn't need them anymore ...).

 

'We are not pulling out tho that would be a safer thing to do in the short term'.

Not going at all might have been the safest thing to do. And easiest. And cheapest. And smartest. Makes me wonder why you went at all???

 

As you might have forgotten. The last war before iraq. The war against the taliban in afghanistan. Where the good old europeans from germany supportet the US. Currently a good friend of mine helps there as part of the german detachment. Sad that you forget so fast.

 

 

Oh, I have one more thing where the US really needs help. Torturing prisoners of war and killing civilians:

a) the US soldiers aren't very good at that. Better don't do it at all.

after the war when you sort out the crimes of war don't forget to get the head honchos as well. You'll find they gave the orders. Give George and Donald and Dick a fair trial and don't forget that we germans aren't in favor of the death penalty.

 

I better log off before I get pissed off big time...

[jitagawn]

Ahmen and YES he is dillusional. ::