Guest Posted July 9, 2001 Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 Mr Scum - your answer re farang and ferringhi makes some kind a sense. Also the story about Haad Yai is one I've never heard before. I'll run it by one of my Thai friends!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 Scum This is an interesting thread. I have two points to discuss. First, I think you may be getting a little carried away with looking for a deeper etymological meaning in the name of a "mahaat" มะหาด tree. The main reason is because the Thai spelling of "mahaat' is probably different from the "maha" มหา- prefix or มหัศ- of "mahaatam" you mention. Sorry I can't find "mahaatam" in my dictionary. Could you give me the Thai spelling? I believe the word "mahaat" is just another example of common names for some species of fruit trees. Other examples of common fruit tree names that start with "ma" are "mamuang" มะม่วง, "makrut" มะกรูด, "makham" มะขาม, "maphrang" มะปราง, "manaaw" มะนาว, "makleua" มะเกลือ, "makok" มะกอก, "mapraaw" มะพร้าว, "mafuang" มะเฟือง, etc. Secondly, I would also like to comment on the Takua Pa phrase. I really don't know that much about Thai etymology, but find it fascinating; however, I believe your translation of Takua Pa flawed. Let me play the role of devil's advocate. I reckon, if this word Takua Pa is translated (assuming if can picked apart and translated) it should have the meaning closer to "forest lead" not "forest of lead". My only support for this argument is that if you agree that แมวป่า"maew pa" , ไก่ป่า "kai pa" , ไข่ป่า "khai pa", ผีป่า "phii pa", เจ้าป่า "jaw pa" translate respectively into something like wild cat, jungle fowl, malaria, forest demon and spirit guardian of the forest, and NOT forest of cats, forest of chickens, forest of fever, forest of ghosts and forest of spirit guardians, then you may see my point. I believe the correct re-translation of "forest of lead" should be Pa Takua not Takua Pa. Just like ป่าทึบ "pa thuep" mean deep jungle, ป่าไม้ "pa maay" means timber forest, and ป่าจาก "pa jaak" means nipa palm forest or forest of nipa palm. Abbot As for the linguistic link between farang and ferringhi, I'll have to leave that one alone and just stick with mainstream Frenchman explanation for now. This is a fun thread and do enjoy it. Does anyone know of any Thai etymology book that is non-native Thai speaker friendly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 Sev, you won't find "Mahaatam" in a Thai dictionary. It's an Indian word, a vernacular version of Sanskrit mahaatya (having the same meaning as I stated above). Remember that over many centuries there was a strong Indian/Hindu influence in Southern Thailand, or Thailand in general. Nakhon Si Thammarat still has a few Hindu temples, and the well-known Wat Wieng Sra (in Wieng Sra) was established on the premises of an ancient, and widely famous Hindu temple. The Malay Pensinsula was called Suvarnabhumi ("Golden Land") in Indian scriptures and there were many trade connections between India and S.E.Asia. Borneo was called Karpura-dvipa, "Island of Camphor", so you can imagine what the Indians purchased there. As someone with a reasonably good training in Indian languages, the two syllables "maha" of course set off the alert system in me. Since Thais often leave out the end-syllables in Indian-imported words (wong instead of vamsa, "dynasty", hong instead of hansa, "swan" etc.) I reckon that "mahaat" could - I repeat c o u l d - stem from "mahaatam" or "mahaatya". You do have a point saying that "ma-" is a commen prefix in Thai, denoting fruit (ma-muang, ma-fueang, ma-phrao etc.). But, if there's a "ton ma-haat", shouldn't there be a fruit called "ma-haat"? Or is there any record of a Thai fruit having disappeared over the last centuries? You're right of course, Takua Pa should translate as "Lead of the Forest", not the other way round - my oversight. Still, the interpretation of the name being a corruption of Takkola is widely accepted among scholars of South-East-Asian studies. There will of couse be always discerning voices. To come back to the farang - feringhi issue: The Persian "farangi" which I mention is unrefutably the Persian version of a "Frank" (frenchman). Speakers of many languages cannot pronounce an r after a consonant, and thus they place an a or i in between the two - so a "Frank" becomes a "farank", then a "farang" and - since in Persian/Urdu/Hindi etc. nationality is usually denoted with an i at the end - you finally get a "farangi". The Thai version is almost identical, except that the end-i is dropped. Well, I hope I''m not getting carried away into too much detail here. I enjoy threads like this enormously myself - as if no one would have guessed! [ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 Sev, to add to the confusion about "ton mahaat", a different possibility just sprang to mind. A "mahaawat" is a "person of high standing" in Hindi and some other Indian vernaculars. Leave out the (for pronunciation purposes incovenient) syllable wa- and you'll get "mahaat". "Mahaawat" is also the original version of mahout, the elephant trainer or rider (from Sanskrit maha-patra, "highly placed person"). In this case also the syllable wa- is sort of half left out, reduced to an "ou". Hope I don't make matters worse ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 Scum and Sev This has been fun, thanks for your input. I would also be interested to know if there is an English book on the origins of Thai words. Bet the party invites would soon dry up though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 Originally posted by abbot thong:"I would also be interested to know if there is an English book on the origins of Thai words." I searched via Google for an etymological dictionary on Thai, and the only possibly useful entry I found was on a book called "From Ancient Thai to Modern Dialects" by J.M. Brown, published in 1965 in Bangkok, but it didn't say by which company. Otherwise I reckon an English-language etym. dic. on Thai will be quite difficult to find. [ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 Dear Scum, Thanks for your interesting speculation about the origin of ตะกั่วป่า,and หาดใหญ่. Must say I kind of favor Sev’s explanation of หาดใหญ่ ’s name (concerning ต้นมะหาด ) to your earlier one. P.S. I just asked the local food hawker at the end of my soi (she comes from หาดใหญ่ ) about the possible origin of หาดใหญ่ 's name. She just smiled blanky and replied เอาข้าวผัดไหม ? So I guess we’re none the wiser on that one. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 11, 2001 Report Share Posted July 11, 2001 Originally posted by Boo Radley:"I just asked the local food hawker at the end of my soi (she comes from หาดใหญ่ ) about the possible origin of หาดใหญ่ 's name. She just smiled blankly ...". I'm not surprised at all. I've found in many Asian countries that highly interested or dedicated foreigners often know more about the local culture and history (or linguistics for that matter) than most of the native residents. But,yes, some questions do remain unanswered, but that's part of the quest ... Looking forward to the next linguistic riddle, SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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