Grandpa Coders

[Chillers]

Hi All,

 

What are people's thoughts on older coders/programmers? I must admit to being rather insulated in Australia from what seems to be the industry norm of hiring coders under 30. Being a coder myself and being over 30 I tend to come up with excuses for why over 30s make better programmers. BUT! Since I am now a business owner with a mind to making money do I need to accept the reality that under 30s really are better for the bottom line? Maybe so.

 

I've been talking to various companies in Thailand, India, and Europe about hiring coders and most seem to follow the same model - under 30s doing the grunt work. So below I've listed some of the arguments for and against.

 

For under 30s:

 

- They are usually at their mental peak

- They are cheaper

- They have less family commitments (kids, wife/husband, etc)

- They are more up to date with current and new technology

- They are easier to train

 

For over 30s

 

- They see the "big picture" better than the younger guys

- They have more general knowledge and experience which can be beneficial in many ways

- Super Nerds are easier to identify in this age group. The "Super Nerd" or gun is an absolute IT nut who can do the work of many. It's hard to quantify what they mean to an organization, but they are important.

- They seem to be better at following processes - less gung ho

 

Ok - if you have more points then please post them. Some of the best coders I know are in their 40s and 50s but I'd have to say that the majority of guys I know in their 50s (and 60s) are doing Cobol work on OSs like VMS and they have no interest in newer OSs or things like Java and .Net. On the other hand, the guys that do are the best I've ever seen - these guys are true Super Nerds.

 

Oh, I should also mention Google at this point. They have gone against the trend and they hire Super Nerds almost exclusively. A good indicator for them is a PHD or someone that has made a real name for themselves in the industry over the years. Their success may be a sign that the industry is changing.

 

So what do YOU think?

 

p.s. thanks to Suadum, Khun Sanuk, and others for providing some of these points

[cavanami]

For me, I was at my mental peak from 35 to 45.

During those years I have the education and a lot of experience.

 

Under 30, people are still learning.

 

I think that more mistakes are made by those under 30.

 

Many between 40 and 60, have the kids out of the house, so no heavy family obligations. They also have the experience and education so they should make fewer mistakes.

 

Like the old and the young bull up on the hill looking down at a herd of cows...you bull says, let's run down there and boom-boom a few cows...older bull...let's walk down there and boom-boom all the cows! ::

[Nervous_Dog]

As a employer I find people with family obligatiions more stable than those without. . . . .

 

DOG

[Chillers]

Sure - Things like a mortgage and mouths to feed are powerful incentives to keep a stable (and long term) job. So do you think there's more value in spending training dollars on the older, more stable people?

[Chillers]

About the average age for the "mental peak" I can remember one article I read said that most men have their mental peak in their early 20s. According to the same study the average woman is at the height of her powers in her late 20s.

Some people peak much later I guess.

 

Personally - still waiting for mine . The old man (father) says I shouldn't get my hopes up.

 

Another thing mentioned by the article was that while the rise before the peak is quite dramatic the decline is not so. With the right conditions (adult education, mental exercises, etc.) you can stay at near peak levels for many years.

[Nervous_Dog]

<<So do you think there's more value in spending training dollars on the older, more stable people? >>

 

I think theres a need for a mix, we have a young software girl now, who we lead a lot, where getting more, and they'll be young, but I am also sourcing a higher paid seniopr person to lead them.

 

If you have a small team and haven't the time to lead them yourself, you need at least one mature person,

 

If your leading them yourself, get young people and save $

 

If your getting a larger team, you definately need a mix

 

DOG

[bibblies]

Another one: people under 30 are maybe more likely to be obsessive geeks who'll spend entire evenings and weekends coding. Once people get families, perspective, etc, they tend not to do that so much. (They lose "the hunger"? :

 

On the other hand, it really helps not to have to reinvent the wheel in software design, however bright and eager you are!

 

Personally, I'd forget about generalities and look at the person. I recently read this, which has a few ideas about the right employees in it:

Paul Graham: How to start a start-up

[Nervous_Dog]

True, my surrent geek spent all weekend at the office working! However her laptop broke so that may have had something to do with it

[Neo]

Yes, there are stereotypes and there is the guy in front of you. Forget the stereotype and look at the individual. There is probably no sure fire standardized test or everyone would be using it. I've managed far more people than anyone here by a long shot as well as cranked out more and better code than anyone here too as far as I can see. I?ve worked at fortune 500 companies, startups, and between. Think of me as a field marshal who works on the front lines and call the shots.

 

-There are people young and old who will work very hard 7 days a week, late into every evening. Some unfortunately get very little done and their code is full of holes. These people have the heart of a lion but have no talent. Not everyone can be an Olympic gold medalist no matter how hard they try. Software gurus are the same. Not to take away anything from those who work 90 hour weeks and are excellent to boot.

 

-At one large company I was at, the oldest guy posted a sheet by his desk saying "my priorities:". #1 jesus, #2 my wife, and down near the bottom was "my work". Yet he was the most respected person there. Everyone knew he was technically excellent and highly skilled even though he didn't work extremely long hours and had a family and other higher priorities. Everyone wanted him on their team. Don?t let age and attitude fool you into passing up the best guy.

 

-People who were successful academically tend to continue to outperform their peers at the professional level, but not always. In my experience people pulling 3.8 gpa's out of 4 run circles around the others. At one point in my career when we were near a university I set the bar at 3.8 for applications we would accept from human resources. We had an objective to build a crack team that performed at a world class level. I couldn't have been happier at the greatness this team achieved, though of course we didn't accept just anyone with a 3.8, that was just one ingredient as it showed a level of diligence and smarts. It made a very nice pool to choose from. In this team, the two 4.0 guys coincidentally turned out to be top dogs. Being good academically does not mean you have to be a geek.. One of my best peers through the years was academically brilliant from an ivy league university. He was our starting middle line backer and a horse. He could do anything.

 

-The expensive guys are the cheapest. That's right. Anyone in the trenches of the software industry knows there are monumental differences in productivity and quality. A guy charging $500/hr saves you money over someone charging $20/hr. Big guns can solve problems in a few hours with brilliant solutions that work. Cheap charlies will struggle for weeks and you'll have a buggy, inflexible solution that is nothing but problems and drags down the organization. So you spent more money on the cheap guy and get less and it took longer to get. This is perhaps the most difficult thing for people to understand. Shopping around on price for a warm body or opening a ?$20/hr? position is stupid. But the caveat is don't include people who have just been around longer collecting gradual raises over the years as high earners.

 

-The last and most important thing to remember is everyone is like a tool in a tool chest. Different people are good at different things. Don?t look at people as being good or bad, look at them as a set of characteristics. Sometimes you need a hammer and sometimes you need a screw driver. Use your best screw driver as a hammer and it won't work. Use the right tool for the job and you will get the most out of it.

[Nervous_Dog]

<<Not everyone can be an Olympic gold medalist no matter how hard they try. Software gurus are the same. Not to take away anything from those who work 90 hour weeks and are excellent to boot.>>

 

Then you haven;t read todays Sydney Morning Herald.

 

Australian Olympic Gold Medalist in huge internet software dramas!

 

ale Begg-Smith's name keeps popping up in all the wrong places, like much of the insidious internet spyware that he has been responsible for peddling and pushing.

 

The Herald has followed a trail of digital fingerprints scattered over the web which shows Mr Begg-Smith's long and rewarding involvement in the distribution of "malicious software" - otherwise known as malware, spyware and adware.

 

The 21-year-old Olympic gold medallist's business dealings place him on the murky fringes of the internet where hackers, scammers and spammers stalk their targets.

 

Malware can range from pop-up generating adware to spyware that tracks victims' online activities. In extreme cases, some forms of spyware will even monitor a user's typing and capture personal data.

 

While it is usually installed on computers without the knowledge or permission of the owner, people are sometimes tricked into downloading this malicious software. And like any infection, recovery can be a painstaking process.

 

According to leading anti-virus company Symantec, over half the malicious software it now investigates is designed to to collect personal data as opposed to damage computers. [see related Symantec information.]

 

"Adware is a rapidly emerging area and one of great concern, but whether or not it is a legitimate practise [in Australia] is not yet clear," said Mr Duncan Giles, special counsel at law firm Freehills.

 

Mr Begg-Smith's manager, Mr David Malina from IMG, said reports about his his client's business had been "exaggerated". "It's not really something that he's involved with anymore," Mr Malina said. "He's minimised his involvement to concentrate on his sport."

 

Since mid-February when Mr Begg-Smith hit the limelight, domain name registration details on sites linked to his companies have been changed. Most of the websites in the network have also been deactivated and stray web pages which were still visible on the net last month have been removed.

 

The Lamborghini-driving Begg-Smith insists his business just makes "technology for companies to monitor ad campaigns".

 

"I don't do anything that pops up," he told reporters at a press conference at the Olympics. "I just make software."

 

But unfortunately for Mr Begg-Smith, the internet doesn't forget. It's not unlike the ski slopes he frequents. Once you step into it, you leave tracks and the more time you spend there, the more difficult it becomes to cover those tracks.

 

And joining the dots, the links and leads that he left behind as an entrepreneurial teenager, now reveal the true nature of his business.

 

"There's no doubt in my mind, 100 per cent, that he has been involved [in malware distribution]," said Mr Steve Shubitz, a self-styled anti-spyware vigilante who runs the stopscum.com website and who unearthed a wealth of detail about Mr Begg-Smith's business activities.

 

"This is far more than just about pop-ups [ads]. His companies enabled others to deliver spyware to people's computers."

 

Last year the Federal Government decided not to enact special legislation to deal with spyware saying that existing trade practices, cyber crime and privacy laws were adequate to deal with the problem.

 

To date there have been no known charges, prosecutions or convictions of people or organisations accused of creating or distributing malware.

 

In the US, however, the Federal Trade Commission is presently involved in a long-running case against an operation that uses malware to hijack computers, spawn a barrage of pop-up ads and install software programs that spy on users. [see details here, here (PDF) and here.]

 

Beyond acknowledging that he owned a domain name called AdsCPM.com, Mr Begg-Smith has been coy about revealing too much about a business which did "not really [have] a name anymore".

 

But a 2002 press release from a Californian company called ValueAd, cites the then 17-year-old as "President, AdsCPM Network, Canada".

 

And on an archived AdsCPM website page, the company spruiks itself as being "one of the highest traffic advertising agencies on the web", responsible for delivering 20 million pop advertisements a day.

 

"This is entirely consistent with our view of AdsCPM - that they helped fund a variety of spyware, by buying ads shown in spyware-delivered pop-ups," said Mr Ben Edelman, a PhD student at Harvard University who has acted as a consultant, expert witness and is researching internet spyware.

 

Domain registration and site address records also show AdsCPM as belonging to a stable of dodgy websites flagged in blacklists maintained by reputable anti-spyware businesses and posted on the internet. [Like this, this and this.]

 

Mr Shubitz, the internet vigilante, has posted archival registration details dating back to 2003, showing that one of those suspect sites, freescratchandwin.com, was registered to Jason Begg-Smith of Thin Air Inc. [see details on this page.]

 

Jason is Dale's brother. He is also a moguls skier and came out to Australia with his younger brother five years ago when they turned their back on the Canadian ski team after a dispute over the training requirements.

 

The freescratchandwin site promoted a downloadable online "scratchies" game. According to several spyware blacklisting sites, the download contained malware which when installed opened pop ads "every few minutes", hijacked users' home- and search-page settings and was suspected of spying on users' web usage.

 

According to Mr Andrew Forin, a Canadian who claims to be close to Dale Begg-Smith, Thin Air Sports was the name of the brothers' first internet venture.

 

Mr Forin, who has written an unpublished biography of Dale Begg-Smith called One in Forever, said the brothers began their business selling ski gear which had been given to them by sponsors.

 

He describes Dale as a freakishly talented sportsman who is successful at everything he takes on - be it skiing, fishing or building an internet business.

 

"He's shy, quite humble but a motivated and driven guy," Mr Forin said.

 

- additional reporting by Louisa Hearn

 

 

http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking/spyware-cybersigns-point-to-beggsmith/2006/03/03/1141191842651.html