Savittre Posted July 8, 2001 Report Share Posted July 8, 2001 Thanks to KM11 Fan for your info re: KM11! It's good stuff, if I ever go there the info you've provided will *greatly enhance* my trip, for sure. So again, thanks for the trouble and effort you went to, to put together that info for the benefit of others! I get the idea, from what I've read, that if going to Cambodia, it's best to take along $USD cash. Is that true, and, if so, are the $USD just for the girls or do $US come in handy elsewhere also? I read elsewhere that the girls at KM11 are indentured. According to what I've read, her parents are given the money they need up front, and the girl goes to KM11 to pay off that debt. Can anyone confirm this? Or, is this not true? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 8, 2001 Report Share Posted July 8, 2001 Savittre, USD are handy for big purchases such as hotel bills, but Riel are perfectly adequate for smaller things. Lots of guys pay for everything, including girls in Riel. Re. indentured service. Yes, most girls in Cambodia period are debtcontracted like this. The arrangement is pretty much as you described, her family gets money up front and she works to pay it off. She can't leave until she's paid off the debt, usually about 6 months from what I was told. Read the thread entitled "Cambodia" in this folder, and "100% tip" in General Discussion for an interesting debate about indentured service and it's morality. And I expect Flyonzewall will chip in here too! Some nasty stuff goes on behind the scenes. Know the reality of the place, then make up your mind. I've stated my case on the other threads, it's a raw, rough scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savittre Posted July 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2001 Thanks, DJ1999J for your reply. I will check out the threads you mentioned. 'Know the reality of the situation...' is good advice, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 9, 2001 Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 Sav, You will find it easier to use US$ for everything (girls and meals included). Cambodian Riel is handy for giving to beggars, tips in retaurants and motorbike parking. If you want to pay for everything in Riel, you will need a wheelbarrow to carry around your cash. I have stayed out of the debate on Cambodia up until now, but here's my take. Yes, most (not all) of the Viet girls at K11 and even Sharkeys are indentured. But, I have always found them to be, by and large, happy and eager to please. So, by frequenting K11, are we exploiting them or helping them. I like to believe that I am helping them, if only in a small way. I almost always take the girls LT back to the hotel, and usually take 2 and even a few times 3 girls (after I did this the first time, everybody out there knows and they all want to bring their friends along and I have a hell of a time trying to only take one now). I give the girls freedom and a few dollars to go off on their own while I go off with my friends for dinner and maybe a few drinks. Only once were the girls not back in the room when I returned (they spent a bit too much time at the disco). I almost always tip them a very generous $5 in the morning, as I know the girl usually gets nothing of the LT fee paid to the mamasan. I have had girls buy me presents before. I have never had a girl give me a sob story about wanting to leave or being beaten (although, I am sure that it happens) and I have talked to many of them about how they are taking care of their family by being here. Many stay after the debt is taken care of because K11 becomes their family. I know there is a problem with seriously underage girls being offered at K11, but that is usually kept behind the scenes and is easily avoided. There are plenty of legal age girls to choose from. I haven't always agreed with Km11fan/notroll's posting methods and heavy promotion of Cambodia over Thailand, but I do share many of his opinions and he has put out some good information. I think being told what to do in the bedroom is a bit much, though-LOL Most of us can figure that part out on our own and everybody has a different idea of what makes a good time anyway. So, I don't feel a bit guilty when I take a girl from K11, and will continue to do so as long as it remains the same. Cambodia remains my favorite destination outside of Thailand (see my trip reports on this board). I could never live there though, I need the comforts of the big city. Ranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savittre Posted July 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 Thanks Ranger, OK, by now I've read the excellent discussions titled 'Cambodia' and '100% Tip'. Very robust! Thanks for bringing them to my attention, DJ1999J. There's no need to repeat those discussions here, they've already been done. Ranger, what would happen if you let the girls go off on their own and, for whatever reason, they didn't come back? I haven't been to Cambodia yet, so I don't know the likelihood of this scenario, just asking out of curiousity, also wondering if the thought had occurred to you? 'Many stay after the debt is taken care of because KM11 becomes their family'- that sounds a little too good to be true, to me, if you catch my drift. Given they're only away from family 6 months, they shouldn't feel so far removed from home & family... Maybe they believe they'll be the focal point of gossip, and all that nasty stuff, back in their village, besides which, they're 'used goods' as they say in the Far East. And what about the electroshock and water torture I read about? Speaking only for myself, I can't go for this indentured stuff. If she's indentured, chances are she doesn't want to be there. And if she doesn't want to be there, why should I think she really wants to be with me? On the other hand, if she's made her own decision to do this work, if she's free to stop any time she chooses and if she has the right to refuse customers, then I see a very different situation, one I can indulge in. But in the end, as Ranger said 'Everybody has a different idea of what makes a good time.' Thanks to *all* of you for your opinions and information!! [ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: Savittre ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 9, 2001 Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 Savittre, In my experience there is some truth to what Ranger says about K11 being the girls' family, or at least the other girls in the same house being like family to them. They really stick together, even more so than bargirls in LOS from what I've seen. About half of the limited number of girls I spoke to had stayed on after their debt had been repayed, when I asked them why they said because they have all their friends there and the money's good. Some that could speak decent English said that life at home was very hard work with no prospect of advancement. K11 was by far the better prospect for them. Sounds like Isaan girls from NEP or Cowboy talking! So IMHO many debtcontracted girls are happy, and believe it or not actually enjoy themselves. When you come from a dirt poor Vietnamese farming community and barely have enough to eat it doesn't take much to improve things for you I guess. K11 can sometimes be a step up! One of the positive things about Vietnamese girls in Cambodia is that they usually do enjoy your company, and can be great fun to be with, not just the sex either. Most appeared to be enjoying themselves more than your average Thai bargirl. That's what I found. On the other hand some girls are abused for sure, although I've never seen this myself it doesn't mean it's not prevalent. It stands to reason it would be hidden. It's just that I don't boycott the whole sanuk scene there for because of this nasty side. If I knew of any specific places which mistreated girls then for certain I would boycott those of course. You have to make your own decision about this, and it seems as if you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 9, 2001 Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 I think that for the most part, the girls that work in K11 are happy to be there and helping their family in some way. Many would rather be there than back home working twelve hour days in the rice paddies, in fact many return for second 'Tours of duty' and some remain working there for years. As far as riel, I usually use them to pay for everything except hotels, most of the tourist hotels prefer dollars but the moto drivers, restaurants like Capitol GH, etc. all are priced in riels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 9, 2001 Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 Originally posted by Savittre: [QB] Ranger, what would happen if you let the girls go off on their own and, for whatever reason, they didn't come back? I haven't been to Cambodia yet, so I don't know the likelihood of this scenario, just asking out of curiousity, also wondering if the thought had occurred to you? Speaking only for myself, I can't go for this indentured stuff. If she's indentured, chances are she doesn't want to be there. And if she doesn't want to be there, why should I think she really wants to be with me? On the other hand, if she's made her own decision to do this work, if she's free to stop any time she chooses and if she has the right to refuse customers, then I see a very different situation, one I can indulge in. Sav, I have never worried about the girls not showing up. I am sure if I happened, I could complain to the mamasan and they would be tortured and beaten (just kidding, I think). Seriosly, they are thrilled to go off with their friends and explore the "big city" and head to the Vietnamese restaurant or go listen to karaoke. I have sometimes brought them along to hang out with me and my friends, but they are mostly bored although they never complain. Regarding girls "wanting" to go with you, I haven't really noticed much of a difference between Thai BG's and the Viets in Cambo in that respect. Of course, I never choose the scared girl hiding in the corner, I choose the happy, friendly ones that approach me. In reality, I doubt that many of the sex-workers in any country really "want" to go with customers anyway. It's usually an economic choice or necessity. I have heard many a horror story from Thai BG's about going with a customer that they despised and being "forced" to do things that they didn't find pleasant, but the rent was due or their mobile phone bill needed to be paid, not to mention the money that needs to be sent back to the family in Issan. No, most Thais (in the Farang scene anyaway) are not indentured, but I don't see it as a whole lot different really. Ranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 i just returned from 7 days of looking into culture and tradition in cambodia, and doing participant investigation. it was a very rewarding trip. i looked for the injustices recounted by flyonzewall, and saw no evidence of torture or beatings. i was turned down by many girls... as a test i would point out the ones that were ignoring me, and when they refused, no one made them. i was 'upstairs' in many of the houses, only saw short time rooms, no girls chained to the bed or torture racks. it's true that many of the girls are there as indentured workers, their families having been given a lump sum, $500 being a years income for many vietnamese, and were working it off. a girl can make $20 a day for having sex, as opposed to working 12 hour days, 6 days a week, in a factory for $40 a month. i spoke with one girl, she volounteered that she had become sexually active when she was ten, came to km11 when she was 12, had been there 4 years, and was supporting her father, mother and younger brother. she seemed quite happy and well adjusted, and enjoyed her work. and, i'm not telling anyone what they have to do as sexual technique, only suggesting. i got both the soft tongue and spidery stroking techniques out of articles by women. i'm always willing to listen to a woman if she wants to tell me what she likes. i would add to these, that in kissing, don't stick your tongue down their throat right away, start out with tongue tip touching, follow her lead as to depth. if you can fuck them in a way that they find pleasing, they're more likely to respond, and you'll both have a better time. [ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: notroll ] [ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: notroll ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 notroll, Just a small question, even though you decided to ignore me: Do you think 12 years is the right age to start working in a brothel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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