Guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Flyonzewall, Have you turned over a new leaf? The above posting is the least sarcastic note I've seen from you in ages, especially considering that it is addressed to notroll (who is km11 if I remember correctly--if I am incorrect, then please ignore this whole post). I was suspicious of Km11 at first, but now I realize that he is a legit', well meaning person. His mail is pretty informative, too. But, I do feel a bit sorry for him, because it is obvious that he has had a lifetime of bad experiences with women. His writings about women seeth with bitterness. I also assume that my country screwed him, too, if he was sent to fight in Vietnam. Anyway, I hope people cut him a little slack but also take what he says with a grain of salt. Because, it is obvious that he, himself, hasn't lived a priveleged, pampered, sane life. I hope that by living with other women who also have gotten the short end of the stick, he will find women that he can relate to, and he can partially come to terms with some of his unhealthy attitudes about women. Hey, I know and dislike a lot of bitches, too. But, I do not have to carry the tremendous weight of hate that this dude bears. Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 quote: Originally posted by vtombrown: Flyonzewall, Have you turned over a new leaf? The above posting is the least sarcastic note I've seen from you in ages, especially considering that it is addressed to notroll (who is km11 if I remember correctly--if I am incorrect, then please ignore this whole post). I was suspicious of Km11 at first, but now I realize that he is a legit', well meaning person. His mail is pretty informative, too. But, I do feel a bit sorry for him, because it is obvious that he has had a lifetime of bad experiences with women. His writings about women seeth with bitterness. I also assume that my country screwed him, too, if he was sent to fight in Vietnam. Anyway, I hope people cut him a little slack but also take what he says with a grain of salt. Because, it is obvious that he, himself, hasn't lived a priveleged, pampered, sane life. I hope that by living with other women who also have gotten the short end of the stick, he will find women that he can relate to, and he can partially come to terms with some of his unhealthy attitudes about women. Hey, I know and dislike a lot of bitches, too. But, I do not have to carry the tremendous weight of hate that this dude bears. Man. No new leaf, I just don't like repeating myself over and over again, posting things i and others wote many times, like that the tortures will of course be hidden from customers. some people simply prefer to be blind, hammering it in will not work. But my question stands, and i would like to receive an answer. Notroll, do you think everything is OK with a system which allows 12 year old girls starting to work in brothels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savittre Posted July 20, 2001 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Hi flyonzewall and notroll! I don't mean to be out of line here, but I think that you two aren't going to be seeing things the same way anytime soon! This is a case of futility, but hey, it's your time to spend as you choose... I suspect notroll/KM11 Fan has already concluded this as he didn't reply to flyonzewall's post earlier in this thread. I've read a lotof what you both have posted (and e-mailed to me), and it has been very interesting for me. Thanks!! With a little luck, I'll be in Cambodia myself in a couple of weeks. Nothing like seeing for yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Savittre: Hi flyonzewall and notroll! I don't mean to be out of line here, but I think that you two aren't going to be seeing things the same way anytime soon! This is a case of futility, but hey, it's your time to spend as you choose... I suspect notroll/KM11 Fan has already concluded this as he didn't reply to flyonzewall's post earlier in this thread. I've read a lotof what you both have posted (and e-mailed to me), and it has been very interesting for me. Thanks!! With a little luck, I'll be in Cambodia myself in a couple of weeks. Nothing like seeing for yourself! You are right, you have to see things for yourself. But people who turn a blind eye will only see what they want to see. So please don't be that way. Often things are very different than they seem to be at the first glance. But i wish somebody else would ask the question i was asking notroll/KM11fan. I think that is a very legitimate question. A girl starting off at the age of 12 in a brothel at KM11 is in my books child prostitution, not really a question of differing opinions. I always thought that this board is against child prostitution, and a comment like the one of notroll stunns me a bit, especially that i seem to be the only one who sees something wrong there. And before starting a flame war i would just like to know his honest opinion on that issue. original cut and pasted quote: i spoke with one girl, she volounteered that she had become sexually active when she was ten, came to km11 when she was 12, had been there 4 years, and was supporting her father, mother and younger brother. she seemed quite happy and well adjusted, and enjoyed her work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 quote: Originally posted by flyonzewall: notroll, Just a small question, even though you decided to ignore me: Do you think 12 years is the right age to start working in a brothel? i absoloutely and unequivically think that 12 is too young to start working in a brothel. and i absoloutely condemn anyone who would purchase the services of anyone this young. that she was already having sex, and that her family benefited from her having sex for money instead of giving it away, it's still something that 'does not compute' with me. i can see her 'fooling around' with kids her own age if she was so inclined, i can't see grown men paying for someone so young. we have to realise, even if we don't like it, that asians have a different outlook on many things, from what westerners think. we can object, but we'll never change them. i've said before, that if i could wave a wand and end child prostitution, and all child exploitation and abuse, i would do it in a second. and, i'm only ignoring you when you're openly antagonistic. if you can be reasonable, so can i. i appreciate that we have conflicting opinions, but there's no reason for either of us to insult the other. you may be surprised that i have included some of your concerns in the info i am now sending out to people that request it, and will post the revised and expanded file, after it's been reviewd by khun sanuk, if i ever get the time to go through and shape it up. i'll even include a statement by you, if it's short (within reason) concise, and well reasoned without being a polemic. work up what you want to say, and send it to <cambofan@hotmail.com>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 notroll (who is km11 if I remember correctly--if I am incorrect, then please ignore this whole post). i was km11fan, then i got banned, agreed to abide by certain boundries, but couldn't restore the km11 handle. i'll try something new soon, as i don't really like 'notroll', and now people accept that i'm not a troll. because it is obvious that he has had a lifetime of bad experiences with women. i haven't had a lifetime of bad experiences, the past 27 years (since i retired from the army at 24 and started relating with women as an adult) just experienced women in all their aspects, including sub agendas and manipulations. i'm not saying that between men and women, one is bad the other good, that one is right the other wrong. men and women are different, have different goals and motivations, and different ways of getting what they want. it's just the way it is. if more older men would share with younger men what they've learned about women and their ways, the younger men wouldn't be so taken advantage of by being led around by their hormones. not to put women down, just what to look out for and how not to be worked into doing what the women want. His writings about women seethe with bitterness. i'm not bitter, just aware... and cynical. i've never been accused of being tactful. also, some of the things i say are 'jokes', not serious. in my revised file, i've toned some of it down. macdonald's and marriage is just an allegory about why support a woman for life if you can have variety. take it with a grain of salt. I also assume that my country screwed him, too, if he was sent to fight in Vietnam. our country, more specifically, our leaders, screwed us by sending us to oppress a people who were not our enemies, had not attacked us, and were only seeking the same freedom from foriegn colonization, and the freedom of national unity and determination, that our own forefathers fought for in 1776. this is a whole other issue, send me an email, i'll send you some historical perspective. for instance, in the gulf of tonkin incident, the u.s. ships maddox and turner joy fired on each other by mistake, then our leaders said it was north vietnamese gunboats as an excuse to send in ground troops. i'm not bitter... i was a young fool, i actually volounteered four times. the thrill of flying in a helicopter, having a license to shoot people, was beyond description. i wouldn't do it knowing what i do now. Anyway, I hope people cut him a little slack but also take what he says with a grain of salt. Because, it is obvious that he, himself, hasn't lived a priveleged, actually, i'm middle class, always had decent housing, schooling, clothes, neighborhoods, never went hungry a single day. pampered, not pampered, but i've never wanted for anything either. i think things have been very comfortable and satisfying. sane life. i read that 1 out of 4 americans is or has suffered a mental illness. how sane is flying around shooting people for four years? or enjoying it? obviously, war is insanity. actually, i think i'm fairly sane and balanced, although there are those that would question my prediliction for prostitutes. I hope that by living with other women who also have gotten the short end of the stick, i don't want to live with women, just satisfy my lust when excess fluid buildup makes my pants too tight and makes it hard to think clearly or sit comfortably. and, i can't say i've ever had the short end of the stick. in fact, i can't figure out why i've had it so good. he will find women that he can relate to, i relate to prostitutes just fine. we both know what the other wants, what's going to happen, and that there'll be no lingering attachments, obligations or expectations. i treat them respectfully and sensually, if, as the viets, they'll accept it, and we can have a good time together if they want to. and he can partially come to terms with some of his unhealthy attitudes about women. take that grain of salt, i don't have aggressive or abusive attitudes towards women, i just know what i want from them, and how to avoid the involvement that leads to me being co opted into their game plan. Hey, I know and dislike a lot of bitches, too. well, some of them are, aren't they? and it's best to avoid getting drawn into their game. after all, we're at a disadvantage: they're smarter, stronger, and they don't play fair. But, I do not have to carry the tremendous weight of hate that this dude bears. you're only assuming, and incorrectly. i don't hate them, i don't feel a burden, and if you read my km11 info, i actually advise guys to treat them romantically, instead of like a piece of meat they've purchased. [ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: notroll ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 I suspect notroll/KM11 Fan has already concluded this as he didn't reply to flyonzewall's post earlier in this thread. it just takes time to get around to all this. i've been here for 4 hours already. i come in two mornings out of three. i was gone yesterday, it just takes time to catch up. i'm already here an hour after i wanted to leave, but, i want to attend to all the questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 Originally posted by flyonzewall: and a comment like the one of notroll stunns me a bit, are you referring to the comment below? i spoke with one girl, she volounteered that she had become sexually active when she was ten, came to km11 when she was 12, had been there 4 years, and was supporting her father, mother and younger brother. she seemed quite happy and well adjusted, and enjoyed her work. i was talking with her, i didn't take her, she's still two years too young. i didn't mean to justify her situation, just reporting what she said. i'm familiar enough with prostitutes to know when they are sad, hard or beat down behind a facade of cherriness. i was surprised that this girl was bright and chipper, and seemed to enjoy what she was doing. she was a really nice young girl, i would much rather have seen her in a good home life and going to school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 quote: Originally posted by notroll: i absoloutely and unequivically think that 12 is too young to start working in a brothel. and i absoloutely condemn anyone who would purchase the services of anyone this young. that she was already having sex, and that her family benefited from her having sex for money instead of giving it away, it's still something that 'does not compute' with me. i can see her 'fooling around' with kids her own age if she was so inclined, i can't see grown men paying for someone so young. we have to realise, even if we don't like it, that asians have a different outlook on many things, from what westerners think. we can object, but we'll never change them. i've said before, that if i could wave a wand and end child prostitution, and all child exploitation and abuse, i would do it in a second. and, i'm only ignoring you when you're openly antagonistic. if you can be reasonable, so can i. i appreciate that we have conflicting opinions, but there's no reason for either of us to insult the other. you may be surprised that i have included some of your concerns in the info i am now sending out to people that request it, and will post the revised and expanded file, after it's been reviewd by khun sanuk, if i ever get the time to go through and shape it up. i'll even include a statement by you, if it's short (within reason) concise, and well reasoned without being a polemic. work up what you want to say, and send it to <cambofan@hotmail.com>. I am positively surprised that you included some of the stuff i have said, and i will thankfully take up on your offer of writing a small statement. Unfortunately there is a huge amount of domestic abuse which can start at even younger ages. I do not know much about Vietnam, but here in Thailand domestic abuse and rape by close family members is very common, so from that angle it does commute with me. And unfortunately there is a market for girls and boys that young, it is not huge , but considerable. It concentrates here in Asia in Cambodia due to the very fuzzy law and law enforcement situation. I personally have seen 12 to 14 year old girls offered in one of the KM11 houses, serving western, asian and local clients. The girl i spoke with in simple signlanguage said clearly that she was beaten, not free to go anywhere. She was in tears. When i left that place I felt like shit, not being able to do anything to change their fate. I have something prepared about the other side of Cambodia's sanuk, when it is finished i will post it, it is more of a trip report into the backgrounds we westerners usually do not see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Originally posted by flyonzewall: [QB]I am positively surprised that you included some of the stuff i have said, and i will thankfully take up on your offer of writing a small statement. i'm opposed to child prostitution and abuse, and i've already included an admonition in my info not to be involved with it. i paraphrased some of what you've said in the version i'm sending out now. i don't mind including 'opposing' viewpoints for balance, and i use ' ' because we're not in conflict on the subject of child prostitution. as other writers have said, when you get too vitrolic or insulting in your opinions, people tend to discount you, and the subject you're promoting, as 'fringe element'. if you write a sober, dis-passionate position on a subject, people will be more inclined to listen and accept. Unfortunately there is a huge amount of domestic abuse which can start at even younger ages. I do not know much about Vietnam, but here in Thailand domestic abuse and rape by close family members is very common, so from that angle it does commute with me. i'm sorry, 'what' does commute with you from 'what' angle? i'm a little lost as to what you mean. And unfortunately there is a market for girls and boys that young, it is not huge , but considerable. It concentrates here in Asia in Cambodia due to the very fuzzy law and law enforcement situation. I personally have seen 12 to 14 year old girls offered in one of the KM11 houses, serving western, asian and local clients. i've seen them too, and i don't go to those houses. i've said before, it's sad, and i wish i could change it, but i can't do anything more about it than you can, only refuse my patronage. The girl i spoke with in simple signlanguage said clearly that she was beaten, not free to go anywhere. She was in tears. When i left that place I felt like shit, not being able to do anything to change their fate. this is the case with some girls. others have cell phones, regularly go to hotels with customers, and make trips to vietnam and return. I have something prepared about the other side of Cambodia's sanuk, when it is finished i will post it, it is more of a trip report into the backgrounds we westerners usually do not see. try to keep it from being too sensationalist or personally opinionated, just lay the facts out. it really helps if you can send it as an email. [ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: notroll ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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