History Question

[Julian2]

The Germans lost 85,000 men in the Battle of the Bulge and 850,000 at Stalingrad. 250,000 were cut off in Latvia until the end of the war, 188,000 lost in the battle of Belgrade. Three battles only.

Let's not forget these were the elite of the German army, a lot of the troops the Allies fought in the West were occupation forces, the elite regiments having been shipped East for the invasion of Russia.

[Flashermac]

Idiot Hitler refused to let the Baltic army retreat when it could have. That's why it was cut off. He senselessly threw away a quarter of a million men, just as he had refused to let von Paulus retreat from Stalingrad when he could have evacuated his entire army.

 

Without Hitler in charge, Germany could most likely have won the war. But without Hitler in charge, there would have been no war.

 

As to some of the "German" forces in France, my father told me they captured a fair number of conscripted Poles -- who had absolutely no interest in fighting for Hitler.

 

 

[Privatebk]

Houla hum hum

 

First: The tripartite pact did not force Germany to declare war to the US after Pearl harbor.

It must be said that von ribbentrop remarked that if Germany did not go to war with the US the pact would become politicaly dead.

 

The "visions" of hitler about Japan attacking the ussr were not just "dreams"

There had been a very lengthy and arduous debate between the japanese navy and the imperial army about going "south" (petrol from indonesia etc..)

or to go north and the fact that many in japan wanted war but not war with the US.

 

About FDR: all recent historical studies established that FDR was faulty for his believe that stalin could be reasoned about democracy in eastern europe.

The fact that eastern europe fell in soviet hands was unavoidable as long as the democracies were not ready to pay the "blood price" that the russian armies paid.

Throughout the war the majority of the german army fought on the eastern front with huge casualities resulting for both sides (of course especially the russian losses were appalling)

Allies losses on the western theater remained ridiculous compared to the losses sustaine by both adversaries on the eastern front.

 

-> The slow progression made by the allies in the west was unavoidable as long as the democracies were not ready to dispatch more troops and sustain the losses necessary for a fast advance.

 

About the german units:

 

By 1944 most of the german units on the western front were second line troops and even eastern troops although a core of veteran and well equiped divisions were kept.

 

The best german units fought against the allies in western europe as well as on the eastern front.

After D-Day the german counter-attacks around Caen etc... were constituted of the best divisions Hitler could muster at that time,

12e Panzerdivision SS Hitlerjugend, Panzer Lehr,

1st PanzerDivision SS (Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler)

etc........

 

Later during the battle of the bulge hitler employed his crack SS panzerkorp.

 

 

[Guest lazyphil]

one has to be thankful to hitler for one thing, for without the war there would be no medal of honor for the ps2!

[Privatebk]

True but I prefer call of duty on PC

[McBif]

I'm thinking though that had the Allies not insisted on an unconditional surrender the German military would have strung up the National Socialist leadership and done the hard work on the Eastern Front for us and held the line.

 

So many "ifs", of course, in history...

 

 

[chuckwoww]

Interesting theory. Admiral Donitz, who succeeded Hitler, was mainly concerned that the German armed forces should surrender to the British or Americans. Not the Soviets. Perhaps he would have been open to such an offer. He went to jail because of his U boat activities I believe.

 

And what if the Russians had taken the rest of Europe? Perhaps dropping the bomb on Japan was a signal to them that the war was over?

[Privatebk]

Yes the unconditional surrender ws stupid

(many americans including the war secretary) protested.

 

If the germans had decided to put all their forces on the eastern front and hold till the allies arrive then the shape of germany would have been different.

 

Although after teheran's conference all was written and nothing could be changed....

 

Doenitz went to jail mainly for the concentration camps and the fact he was certainly aware of what was really happening and for having done nothing. (he always claimed not having known about them)

 

 

[Steve]

Hitler certainly had provocation to war against the U.S. The 'Lend/Lease' agreement was nothing more than aiding Hitler's enemies. Maybe its one sided history from my teachers but history classes here have always maintained that Hitler didn't want America in the war. He feared the industrial might and the sheer numbers America could field. The european powers were imperial and had colonies around the globe. FDR knew that if Hitler defeated them he got their holdings across the globe as well. England being the biggest prize but also France had vast holdings as well. Africa was owned by various european powers, large chunks of Asia, the Carribean(Jamaica, Trinidad, Bahamas, Guyana, Guadaloupe, St. Barts/St.Vincent, etc.) as well which was in America's backyard. The commonwealth nations of Canada, Austrailia and others wouldn't last long had Hitler beaten England.

 

America was isolationist during that time. WWI was costly in American lives. Strangely enough, the flu epidemic killed more american soldiers than germans did from what I've read. In any event. Anyway, there was always some sort of war happening in Europe and it was seen as another 'european war' to most Americans. FDR wasn't a saint but he did see the danger of fascism and Hitler and did all he could to change american sentiment from sympathizing with the UK to wanting to join the fight.

 

From my understanding Japan just wanted to get a stalemate with America so it could get oil, rubber and other raw materials from asia.

 

Hitler was his own worse enemy. His unorthdox ways helped Germany at first and hurt it later when he should have deferred to his field marshals. Military men who were trained in the art of battle and military strategy. Instead he micromanaged the war and didn't listen to his advisors. Stalin killed many of his own by trying to either mircomanage the war or killing off effective generals because he feared they'd become popular and therefore leaving decisions to persons not equipped. Many starved to death in his scorched earth strategy. Whole villages with nothing left for themselves or the advancing germans.

 

If Germany hadn't declared war on America, its not out of the realm of possibility that FDR would have forced Germany's hand. Pearl Harbor gave him the same national sentiment to extend the war to Germany by extension, even though Germanyu really gave him no provocation as 911 did for Bush to invade Iraq (please, I'm not trying to start another iraq debate..lol).

 

Interesting thing about the media in America during the war and how they viewed the Germans and the Japanese. With regards to the war v. Germany, they made it clear they were fighting the Nazis, not the German people. However, with regards to Japan they were fighting the Japansese people and depicted them as sneaky, coniving race in propoganda films. Hitler only was mostly used when it was a propaganda film against Germany.

 

 

[chuckwoww]

Interesting thing about the media in America during the war and how they viewed the Germans and the Japanese. With regards to the war v. Germany, they made it clear they were fighting the Nazis, not the German people. However, with regards to Japan they were fighting the Japansese people and depicted them as sneaky, coniving race in propoganda films. Hitler only was mostly used when it was a propaganda film against Germany.

 

They still do that in American movies. Talk about Nazi submarines and Nazi bombers. Not PC to call them German I guess, but they were. Hitler was popular too.