Bar etiquette

[Guest]

[color:blue]Girls are in a business where money comes first -good luck to them. If you have any delusions about that I think you're visiting the wrong places. Demanding rights like 'she agreed to sex so she should honour it' is IMO a bit petty. color=blue>

 

 

 

Do you mean that since prostitution is an immoral business we should abandon all civility and ethics? There is a big difference between what someone can do (i.e. get away with) and what is right (or fair).

[iono]

About 20 years ago in Korea during my formative punter years my friend taught me a valuable lesson. His regular was with another guy and I pointed her out, he stated not now the other guy is paying for her time. I figure wether it's a drink or going for a short time why screw with another man's good time. There's plenty to go around, on the other hand if I paid and she's being taken from me then so be. No sweat of course I'd never BF her again.

[Guest]

last time i was in BK at NEP I'd BF'd a cute girlie from a gogo (forget which)

 

when i returned the next day she came over to me and I bought the usual lady drink and had fully intended to BF her again

 

 

 

-however she was called over by the mamasan and told to entertain an elderly chap who looked like a regular thai or japenese guy - he obviously was a big spender and familiar with the mamasan

 

 

 

-even though i'd wanted to bf her and she wanted to go with me she was forced to go with the elderly chap

 

 

 

-rude or what?

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

"Do you mean that since prostitution is an immoral business we should abandon all civility and ethics? There is a big difference between what someone can do (i.e. get away with) and what is right (or fair). "

 

 

 

Let me provide an analogy. Not perfect, but at the same time, relevant.

 

You apply for 2 jobs and interview for both. The first company offers you a job to start at a set time in the future. You accept. A few days later the other company does the same thing, but offering a much better package. Now, you have not actually starting working for the first company, but admittedly have accepted their offer. After careful consideration you decide to take the better job and contact the the first company to tell them you will not be starting work with them.

 

 

 

Now, some might say an agreement is an agreement but I still doubt that many people would turn down a better job especially when they had not even started working for the company. I for one have been in this situation and looked after number one.

 

 

 

The girl in question did not ask the Frenchman to pay for a hotel room, get into bed and then walk out. She merely decided in the bar that she would prefer to go with another guy.

 

 

 

"Ethics/civility"????????

 

 

 

Always try to put yourself in the other person's shoes.

 

 

 

Anyway, it's an interesting thread and I guess everyone has their own angle which is healthy.

 

 

 

Cheers

[Guest]

[color:blue]Let me provide an analogy.color=blue>

 

 

 

In the situation you describe it is unethical (and selfish) to take the second job offer. The ethical approach is to tell the first company that you have another company you are waiting to hear from and that you can't accept their offer until you hear from the other company. Tell the second company you have an offer from another company and you need their response ASAP. Not only that, but when you accept the first offer you should call other companies you were interviewing at and tell them you are no longer available.

 

 

 

The reason it is unethical is that the first company is harmed (perhaps greatly) by your decision. Not only that, but all the other people applying for the job (who were rejected) have been harmed.

 

 

 

If circumstances changed in an unforeseeable way, then breaking your deal could be deemed justifiable. E.g. if you won the lottery, or if your father died and you had to move out of state to care for your mother.

 

 

 

How would you feel if you showed up at the second job and they told you that they changed their minds and were actually going to pay you less than the first company was offering?

 

 

 

I believe, there are times where something that is marginally unethical may be justified because it causes so much good, but it is dangerous to play that game (on a very slippery slope).

 

 

 

[color:blue]The girl in question did not ask the Frenchman to pay for a hotel room, get into bed and then walk out. She merely decided in the bar that she would prefer to go with another guy. color=blue>

 

 

 

She gains by breaking the agreement, he is harmed. It is unethical. In this case it is less egregious than the hypothetical scenario you described, but still wrong. If the bar makes it up to the guy in another way that he is happy with (e.g. two free barfines, all drinks on the house, ...) then he may be fine with breaking the contract.

[Guest]

[color:red]In the situation you describe it is unethical (and selfish) to take the second job offer. color=red>

 

 

 

This may not be as clear cut and obvious as I first thought.

 

 

 

After discussing this with a couple of friends, they are not convinced that it is clearly an unethical thing to do. Both said they would not accept the first offer without cancelling the second (or telling the first company about the second), and they would be annoyed at someone who did this to them. Further, they both said that they would probably not hire someone who reneged on an offer in the future.

 

 

 

However, they wouldn't go so far as to say that it is unethical to renege on the offer, or even that it was clearly "bad" or "wrong".

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

You are obviously an ethical guy. I don't think I implied that I was all the time actually. As I said I would 'look after number one' in that situation. Despite what you have termed as an unethical approach, my intuitive knowledge of human nature tells me that in reality many other people would do the same thing -'wrong' though it might be.

 

 

 

My experience of the corporate world is that there is widespread abuse of worker rights. Just as workers may make what you see as unethical decisions, companies may often implement policies that exploit employees. I think the word naive comes to mind if you really believe that the corporate world is run on sentiment and ethics.

 

 

 

So, maybe you'll get the point that I'm making. In a situation where unethical behaviour is common, people tend to look after themselves.

 

If you consider that many bar girls have experienced being ripped off by punters, or being mentally/physically abused, it comes as no surpise to me that they act in what you refer to as an unethical way. They take what they can while they can. Totally understandable I think.

 

 

 

In sum, I have no delusions about the way companies treat their employees in some cases, and therefore look after myself. Similarly,many bar girls do not see all customers as being ethical people. They take the highest offer regardless of your law of ethics, and often give a very good performance. They are conditioned by what they have heard and seen, not by your standards.

 

 

 

BTW to say that the Frenchman was 'harmed' is somewhat of an overstatement.

 

 

 

So:

 

 

 

1. I don't take things in bars too seriously (and my friends have similar attitudes). Win some, lose some.

 

2. I don't expect generally poor, generally uneducated, bar girls to act in an ethical way at all times. I accept the situation in the bars and go with it. I have no great expectations.

 

 

 

I really think that you need to be a little bit more honest with yourself. Why are you so hard on bar girls that have so much less than you, and have a future that is hardly bright? A little charity is needed I think.Give them the benefit of the doubt, and I say again, put yourself in their shoes.

 

 

 

Cheers. I just re-read this, I hope you don't get the wrong idea. If the tone seems overly critical, it was not meant to be. It's good to get your view.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

[color:blue]My experience of the corporate world is that there is widespread abuse of worker rights. Just as workers may make what you see as unethical decisions, companies may often implement policies that exploit employees. I think the word naive comes to mind if you really believe that the corporate world is run on sentiment and ethics.

 

 

 

So, maybe you'll get the point that I'm making. In a situation where unethical behaviour is common, people tend to look after themselves.color=blue>

 

 

 

Actually, I agree. I have no illusions that everyone I deal with is going to be ethical. But I try to give them the benefit of the doubt unless they have shown themselves otherwise. How much I really trust them depends on how well I know them and also depends on how other people in that business have treated me. I was trying to make the point (in my correction above) that while I don't think taking the 2nd job offer is strictly ethical, it is not completely out of the bounds of professional conduct. In an environment where ethics are ignored, you can't be expected to act completely ethically and survive.

 

 

 

However, some people go too far and live by the philosophy of "screw the other guy before he screws you." Everyone should endeavor to act as ethically (or hopefully, slightly more so) than those around him.

 

 

 

[color:blue]If you consider that many bar girls have experienced being ripped off by punters, or being mentally/physically abused, it comes as no surpise to me that they act in what you refer to as an unethical way. They take what they can while they can. Totally understandable I think.color=blue>

 

 

 

This is understandable, but unfortunate. It's a vicious cycle where good bargirls act with integrity until some customer screws them over (figuratively). Then they become jaded and eventually screw over their customers, causing more customers feeling justified to screw over other bargirls ....

 

 

 

I am probably somewhat naive in believing that if I act honestly and ethically that that will have some (slight) effect on those I deal with. At least I can walk away knowing that I wasn't the one who turned that trusting farm girl into an insensitive "whore". There are ways to act ethically and not act like a simpleton, to minimize the number of times you get burned. It is not a simple "screw or be screwed" game.

 

 

 

[color:blue]BTW to say that the Frenchman was 'harmed' is somewhat of an overstatement.color=blue>

 

 

 

Use whatever word you want, but he was worse off after this happened.

 

 

 

[color:blue]1. I don't take things in bars too seriously (and my friends have similar attitudes). Win some, lose some.

 

2. I don't expect generally poor, generally uneducated, bar girls to act in an ethical way at all times. I accept the situation in the bars and go with it. I have no great expectations. color=blue>

 

 

 

I agree with these. People shouldn't let every minor insult or instance of bad behavior get to them. However, that behavior is still wrong.

 

 

 

[color:blue]I really think that you need to be a little bit more honest with yourself. Why are you so hard on bar girls that have so much less than you, and have a future that is hardly bright? A little charity is needed I think.Give them the benefit of the doubt, and I say again, put yourself in their shoes.color=blue>

 

 

 

I don't think I'm on hard on them. My attitude towards bad behavior from bargirls ranges from amused (in the case where they try to hustle an extra tip), to saddened (when they are very distrustful of me, probably due to being burned in the past), to annoyed (when they are caught red-handed in a lie that seriously inconviences me), to outraged (hasn't happend to me yet, but I'm sure it will someday).

 

 

 

I have no problems at all with prostitution. However, much of the surrounding dishonesty, sleaziness, and outright fraud does bother me. (Well, a little sleaziness is not always a bad thing

[walletss]

Your post reminds of experiences in The Philippines, where you would encounter the problems of racial profiling by the working girls and mamasans in the bars. In the classier bars of Manila, many of the girls refused to accept a barfine from any customers other than Korean or Japanese. Westerners were considered relative " cheap charlies" .

 

When I stop to think about it, I can understand the mamasans point of view. She was obviously directing traffic for maximum returns. Business is business.

 

Anyway it works both ways because we dont have to feel guilty when negotiating with a girl for her time. I think once you fix it in your head that barfining from the bars point of view is a commercial transaction, you won't bat an eyelid when things take a sudden twist.

[oldian]

forget the ethics here, let's just all be aware of feelings, and how we have all felt when such a situation has happened. I was in Clinton Plaza a year ago, met a really nice young cutie. She went off to dance. I told the mamasan to call her over when she finished, and i was happily fantasizing as to how the rest of the night would go...a couple of Japanese businessmen walked in, sat next to me, and before i knew it or the mamasan could reach my dancer, they had barfined her....yeah, i had been in Thailand enough to be jai yen, and to walk out and find other fish in the sea...but i was still rather ticked off....i also decided not to go back to that gogo anymore, as the mamasan had been less than apologetic..having been on that side of the fence, if i was aware of it i certainly wouldn't try to intrude on someone else's fantasy......