markle Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 lucky What samak is trying to say is that ¨ÃÔ§æËÃ×à (CHING CHING LER®) is simply ¨ÃÔ§ËÃ×Ãà »ÅèÒ (CHING REU(h) PLAO(l)) with the CHING repeated and the PLAO(l) dropped off the end. If you could read Thai you wouldn't make such elementary mistakes (i.e. REU(h)/LER is the same word). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyfarang Posted April 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2003 Says markle: lucky What samak is trying to say is that ¨ÃÔ§æËÃ×à (CHING CHING LER®) is simply ¨ÃÔ§ËÃ×Ãà »ÅèÒ (CHING REU(h) PLAO(l)) with the CHING repeated and the PLAO(l) dropped off the end. If you could read Thai you wouldn't make such elementary mistakes (i.e. REU(h)/LER is the same word). Markle - I am fully familiar with both phrases and the subtleties involved with their usage and which one to use on which occasion. REU and LER are NOT the same word, in my opinion, even without reading any Thai. The initial consonant is different, the vowel is different, and the meaning is different. LER is only used at the end of sentences, unlike REU. I believe I first learned the word many years ago from an AUA text. If you were more familiar with common Thai speech patterns and less concerned with nitpicking dictionary definitions, maybe you would realize that. I'm sure that if you would go back to your dictionary under LAW LING, you could find the correct word. I'm not sure that your interpretation of what Samak was saying is correct. It seems to me he was saying that the meaning of both phrases was the same, in their entirety, not that REU and LER are the same word. This could well be argued, but there are often many different ways of saying the same thing, each with it's own flavor and nuance. Friendlyfiend - I agree that CHING REU(h) PLAO(l) is not, in and of itself, offensive. But it can easily be taken that way, in my experience, although tone of voice could have a lot to do with it. Question: Can anyone explain why REU would be pronounced with a high tone in CHING REU PLAO, but with a rising tone at the end of a sentence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 5, 2003 Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 Says luckyfarang: REU and LER are NOT the same word, in my opinion, even without reading any Thai. The initial consonant is different, the vowel is different, and the meaning is different. I agree. Once at a shindig at our wat, I sat by my girlfriend during which time an old friend came over to our table. My g/f used "ler" - pronounced like "learning", as a one word phrase to convey understanding of what she was being told and as a means to keep the conversation flowing. The other word has different connotations as I've heard it used frequently in many a Thai song. It also sounds a hella lot different. I'm too lazy to look in my dictionary, but I'm convinced these are two different words with two different meanings. I may be wrong, but... Yo Markle. Hey man, why so high and mighty with the Thai language, like you're some lord high master all knowing linguistics guru?! Jeez, come down off your throne and join the rest of us. The patronizing act is stale, already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyfarang Posted April 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 <<<[color:"blue"]My g/f used "ler" - pronounced like "learning", as a one word phrase to convey understanding of what she was being told and as a means to keep the conversation flowing.[/color] >> When used alone, LER® translates most closely as "Is that so?" or "Is that a fact?" Noone taught me that, I figured it out as I've done with so many other Thai idioms with no perfect translation into English. This is why someone such as myself who learned to speak Thai without learning to read and write, could achieve a certain level of conversational fluency far beyond many of those who concentrate on learning to read and write and translate individual Thai words into English. True fluency is all in the usages and ability to produce speech patterns that the Thais can recognize and understand, even if it's not the same exact way that they would say it themselves. Then, with further study and time invested, you can learn bit by bit to convey your ideas exactly as a Thai would. And that's the pissing contest that I would probably win against Markle: being able to express my ideas accurately, fluidly and rapidly in a conversation with Thais, even though he's supposedly lived for 15 years in Thailand and is a teacher. I expect that Markle's vocabulary is larger than mine, not that it would take me 15 years in country to catch up with him. And I expect that his comprehension is also better than mine. But his conversational ability cannot be that great if he is unfamiliar with the VERY commonly used expression: LER® Comprehension is by far my weakest point. When I listen to a Thai newscast, I may pick up about 50% to 75% of the words, but I lose a lot of the meaning trying to assemble the ideas at the speed that the announcer talks. When I speak directly with Thais, they purposely simplify things a bit for me and use less slang, less dialect and less arcane references, so that I pick up more like 80% to 90% of what is said. And I can always ask questions if I need some clarification. When I hear an important new word that is not already in my vocabulary, I make it a point to jot it down with the correct tones. There are many words not found in dictionaries that can only be learned in conversation. My strongest point is probably my accent, on which I made a concentrated effort from day one. If your accent is bad and the Thais can't understand you, they get bored after about one minute and you can't learn conversation from them once they lose interest. So here is a recap of my experience: LER® - Is that so? It is never used at the beginning or the middle of a sentence. When used alone, it is asking for confirmation of what the previous speaker just said. When used at the end of a sentence, it is asking for confirmation of that sentence. CHING CHING LER® - Really? Is that so? CHING REU(h) PLAO(l) - True or not? CHING REU(h) PLAO(l) is used much more frequently in Thai than "True or not" is ever used in English, and depending on what you are replying to and the tone of voice you use, it could be seen as questioning the accuracy of the statement or the truthfulness of the speaker. It is also frequently used jokingly, coyly, or to feign modesty when complimented. REU® translates almost exactly as "or", but has another usage when used at the end of a sentence. It changes it into a question, and would translate as "or....." And in the phrase CHING REU(h) PLAO(l), it takes on a high tone. Maybe Jasmine could explain why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markle Posted April 6, 2003 Report Share Posted April 6, 2003 I give up. You win. You are sooo much better than me. Blah blah blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Have to disagree with you here. There's only one "ËÃ×Ã", or the less formal "ÃÖ". Pronounced best as "Rue". "Ler" is just another way to pronouce I guess, albeit less accurate. By itself, the words translates into "or". At the end of a sentence, and together with "Plao" ËÃ×Ãà »ÅèÒ, it makes the sentence into a question, although the exact translation would be "or not". By adding "or not" to a statement, you are questioning the answer (effectively making the sentence a question). If one says the word ËÃ×à in response to something you say, he'she really means to say ËÃ×Ãà »ÅèÒ. That is questioning your statement. Its really irrelevant whether you transliterate this word to "Rue" or "Ler". Rue in "¨ÃÔ§æËÃ×Ã" and in "¨ÃÔ§ËÃ×Ãà »ÅèÒ" are one and the same word. Word for word translation of the first is "really, really, or?" and of the second "really or not?". In spoken language "Plao" is often left out, but that doesn't change the word "Rue". In addition, if the answer is presumed to a question, the question ends usually with "Rue" without "Plao". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyfarang Posted April 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Says orandanodes: Have to disagree with you here. There's only one "ËÃ×Ã", or the less formal "ÃÖ". Pronounced best as "Rue". "Ler" is just another way to pronouce I guess, albeit less accurate. Rue in "¨ÃÔ§æËÃ×Ã" and in "¨ÃÔ§ËÃ×Ãà »ÅèÒ" are one and the same word. Word for word translation of the first is "really, really, or?" and of the second "really or not?". In spoken language "Plao" is often left out, but that doesn't change the word "Rue". In addition, if the answer is presumed to a question, the question ends usually with "Rue" without "Plao". [color:"brown"] I am completely familiar with all of the usages of REU® and REU® PLAO(l). What I'm not clear on, apparently, is if LER® is a real word, or a bastardization of REU®. I will start a new thread on it. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markle Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Says luckyfarang: What I'm not clear on, apparently, is if LER® is a real word, or a bastardization of REU®. No need for a new thread- LER(h) is an inaccurate transliteration (Thai script to Roman script) of a colloquial corruption of ËÃ×Ã(REU®). My point all along is that if you could read Thai you would know this. Even the best Thai - Roman transliteration system is fraught with inaccuracies (It could even be debated that Thai script doesn't always fully capture the vagueries of the language) To base your knowledge of Thai entirely on a Roman transcript is a very slippery slope indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 unless you can show that "Ler" is spelled in Thai differently that "Rue", there no need to strat a new tread on the the same word. Quite simple really. "Rue" in the middle of a sentence usally translates to "or". "Rue" at the end (with or without "Plao") makes the sentece a question, but in a different sense than when using "Mai?", in that the answer is presumed. By the way, "LeR" emphasising the "R" at the end is not pssoble in Thai. The only "R" sound in Thai is the Ror Rua "Ã", but this letter alsways sounds like and "N" at the end of a word. It'll therefore be impossible to find a Thai word in the dictionary that sounds like "LeR". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyfarang Posted April 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Just another innaccurate transliteration. It sounds more like LUH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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