Kick those immoral monks out!?!?

[MaiLuk]

In a thread in the relationships forum several posters mentioned that monks bless bar girls for the purpose of helping them to be successful in their line of work.

 

I know from previous threads here that monks give magik tattoos to men who may be killers, the purpose being to protect the man's life.

 

This causes several questions to go thru my brain:

 

Is a monk who does this immoral?

 

Is it a monks job to morally judge a person or their activity, and give or withhold his blessing based on that judgment?

 

Should a monk give his blessing to a person starting a new restaurant? If yes, then why not to a bar girl?

 

 

 

MaiLuk

[pattaya127]

Should a monk give his blessing to a person starting a new restaurant? If yes, then why not to a bar girl?

----------------------------

Yes, I do agree with you. if it feeds one person's superstition, why not another. I think jasmine in the other thread was throwing the stone at the monks, not the girls who wish to have many customers though.

I read stuff like anyone else, i have little expertise in monk corruption, except that Thailand has entered the age of consumerism for a while, and that monks are not that cut oout from the population, and either share in the goodies of consumerism (being a successful monk is as much raising money than having spiritual authority, if not more), or are co-opted by their next of kin and followers in obliging all types of superstitions.

the sangha being a very, very, very slow body, while being thai politically correct, much needed reform or guidance are not to be expected soon from it.

[nkped]

I won't say that it doesn't happen as described, but I would think it more likely that a young woman would ask for a monk's blessing without discussing her present line of work. Or if she has done so, a blessing for her safety and more success in the future than in the present in following the way of Buddha. ::

[whosyourdaddy]

Please remember that a % of the monks are ex-cons who can not make it in the real world and hence enter the monkhood. Also the same as poor peasant folks who want a free lifestyle. My mates father in law is a monk because he can make more money at it than rural farming.

[Redbaron]

I know from previous threads here that monks give magik tattoos to men who may be killers, the purpose being to protect the man's life.

 

This sounds a LOT more immoral than simply giving a bargirl, restauranteur or a noodle cooker a blessing.

[pattaya127]

the concept of morality is a highly interesting subject, when comparing our sense of it in the west, and how thais go about it, or SE asians or even asians. Worth a thread in itself. In GD though, for full participation with blows, :onfire: and .....

[Guest]

MaiLuk said:

Is it a monks job to morally judge a person or their activity, and give or withhold his blessing based on that judgment?

 

Should a monk give his blessing to a person starting a new restaurant? If yes, then why not to a bar girl?

 

To my mind, a monk's task is to set people on the right/righteous path. And this cannot be done without judging their actions, and if necessary, correcting them, no?

 

I absolutely can't see why a monk should "bless" any kind of commercial venture, be it the selling of food items in a restaurant or the selling of some Issaani pussy. Shouldn't they rather give spiritual advice? The monks perform these blessings to make money for themselves, that's all. In many years in Thailand I have rarely come across monks for whom I could garner some respect.

 

A Western friend of mine who was ordained as a monk in Thailand, and a genuinely spiritual person, has nothing but scorn for Thai monks. The power and money politics in Thai temples seem to be at least as bad as what is played out in "real" politics. Everyone is jostling to be the "chao avaat" or head monk, which opens the money well, and there is a huge amount of childish envy around. One good example of this envy is to be found in the story of Phra Jamnien, the famous monk of the "Tiger Cave Temple" near Krabi. He used to live in a temple in Nakhon Si Thammarat, and when he attracted many followers with his charisma and sensible advice, the head monk simply kicked him out.

 

The only monks I have had valuable conversations with (I speak Thai) were forest monks who purposely live like paupers. They usually don't even wear shoes and often sleep on "pillows" which are but chunks of wood.

 

The other scumbags were rather interested in my expensive camera(s) or the mating habits of Western females. In a nutshell, I have zero respect for 99% of Thai monks. When I see them I cringe.

[MaiLuk]

Lots of insight in your post, hope you are willing to elaborate.

 

Your post takes away the romantic view of the thai monkhood If what you say is true, why do the thais continue to revere monks?

 

For example, two thai ex-gfs here in america without any reservation support the temples here and hold the monks in high esteem. When I went to thailand with one of these girls we visited a monk in bkk to help me with a problem I had, she was very serious about it. We brought a basket of food, I got the blessing and he gave me a blessed necklace. The girl said her mother goes to that temple almost every day and brings food for the same monk. The monk is very important to her family. The monks give the food they don't eat to the animals around the temple (those cats and dogs look like hell after a lifetime diet of thai food :. Cannot remember if the food also goes to people who are hungry. Of course we gave some baht also on that visit to the monk.

 

Are the thais ignorant or just see nothing wrong with the money and power aspects of the temple life?

 

I absolutely can't see why a monk should "bless" any kind of commercial venture, be it the selling of food items in a restaurant or the selling of some Issaani pussy. Shouldn't they rather give spiritual advice?

 

I suppose they do both. Haven't monks everywhere been called upon to bless business ventures? If they give blessings at all, why not to a business venture? The venture's success or failure might affect the survival of the family involved. If its your opinion that monks should not give blessings at all because its superstition then that makes sense. Tho the thais looking for a blessing won't agree :: ::

 

The only monks I have had valuable conversations with (I speak Thai) were forest monks who purposely live like paupers. They usually don't even wear shoes and often sleep on "pillows" which are but chunks of wood.

 

They apparently have not undertaken to assist thais in their life struggles, so they're an entirley different species than a monk in the temple. Easier to steer clear of ethical dilemmas living in a forest.

 

In a nutshell, I have zero respect for 99% of Thai monks. When I see them I cringe.

 

As WYD pointed out, not all monks are there for their love of buddhism. But 99%? What you're saying is that the entire system is corrupted by money. Ultimately I may come to agree with this, but for now I have trouble believing the WHOLE system has gone to the toilet. Maybe its the western goggles as P127 implied that makes it look rotten to outsiders.

 

The monks perform these blessings to make money for themselves, that's all.

 

This is the crux of the matter. Since its cash, always going to have some monks sometimes pocketing the money on the spot. Putting that fact aside, what is supposed to happen to most of this money? You mentioned that the chao avaat will have access to the money well. Are you saying he gets to treat the donations as his own personal income? And that most do? Seems to me we are talking about big money, there must be some form of accounting system in place. Would be interested to know what thais expect their donations to be used for, and what they actually are used for.

 

On the monks in the forrest, did the one you talked to seem like he was certain of his decision to live in the forrest?

[Guest]

MaiLuk said:

Your post takes away the romantic view of the thai monkhood If what you say is true, why do the thais continue to revere monks?"

 

There have been so many scandals involving monks in Thailand, that it is difficult to still have a romantic view about that "vocation". The scandals have in some way dented the Thais' trust in the monkhood, at least among the more educated ones. I remember a cartoon in a Thai paper some years ago, alluding to several monkhood scandals, in which a mother tell her misbehaving son (I cite from memory), "If you don't better yourself, I will call a monk over!", at which the boy cringed with fear. The monk as beelzebub!

 

Most Thais of course still have some kind of respect for the monkhood, not least out of fear. Thais believe that monks are representatives of the Buddha and as such endowed with saksit, i.e. some spiritual power. Of course, the monks that they give alms to may be first-class crooks, but then they may not be, and why invite heaven's wrath. Better be safe than sorry. By paying homage to the monkhood the Thais ensure that the will receive blessings, and even if that means that on many (or most) occasions they pay homage to scumbag monks. Most Thais are very fearful of the spiritual world, curses, bad omens and stuff (in short, they're superstitious), so they want to ensure by all means that they sail smoothly through this life.

 

 

"We brought a basket of food, I got the blessing and he gave me a blessed necklace."

 

If you study Buddhism, the "real" Buddhism and not the bastardised Thai version which is a mixture of Buddhism, Hinduism and Animism, you'll realize that the handing out of "blessed" amulets or other magical items is very much frowned upon. So is the the mere claim to have spiritual powers, which indeed countless monks do claim. 'Nuff said.

 

"Are the thais ignorant or just see nothing wrong with the money and power aspects of the temple life?"

 

The Thais are extremely ignorant about Buddhism as taught by the Buddha. I've even met Thais who claimed Buddha was born in Thailand. This might be due to the various "footprints" of the Buddha which you find in several places in the country which are supposed to have been left by the Buddha during his visits to Thailand. Well, the Buddha never ever left the area of what is today Southern Nepal and Northen India. The Thais wouldn't have a clue.

 

Aside from that, ask a Thai where the Thais actually were living when the Buddha was supposed to have visited their land (some 2500 years ago). Ha! That'll get them perplexed. The Thais only moved into what is now Thailand between the 9th/10th (?) and 13th century. When the Buddha was alive Thailand was populated by what one might call "aboriginals" (of which a few are still around).

 

"Haven't monks everywhere been called upon to bless business ventures? If they give blessings at all, why not to a business venture? The venture's success or failure might affect the survival of the family involved. If its your opinion that monks should not give blessings at all because its superstition then that makes sense. Tho the thais looking for a blessing won't agree :: ::

 

As a true Buddhist, believing in the law of karma, one should assume that good begets good, so someone who does good would prosper in life anyway. But the monks would be stupid to tell their followers that.

I do know that Hindu priests conduct similar blessings; Thai Buddhism has absorbed all this stuff from Hinduism. I'm not sure what the Catholics and Protestants do. I haven't heard of Islamic mullahs performing these rites. Srilankan Buddhists perform similar rites, but then their Buddhism is as mixed up as the Thai one.

 

 

"(The forest monks) apparently have not undertaken to assist thais in their life struggles, so they're an entirley different species than a monk in the temple. Easier to steer clear of ethical dilemmas living in a forest.

 

The other viewpoint is that by these monks' endeavour to become "perfected" beings, society on the whole will benefit. These monks are also not completely out of reach for people; many are visited and consulted.

 

"As WYD pointed out, not all monks are there for their love of buddhism. But 99%? What you're saying is that the entire system is corrupted by money. Ultimately I may come to agree with this, but for now I have trouble believing the WHOLE system has gone to the toilet. Maybe its the western goggles as P127 implied that makes it look rotten to outsiders.

 

I do believe the system, or Thai Buddhism to be precise, is highly corrupted. I'm not saying that 99% of monks have ulterior motives when they join the monkhood, but Thai Buddhism itself is so warped that it's very difficult to get on the right Buddhist path within the system.

 

Look at what happened some 15 or so years back in Thailand (I was living here already). In the late eighties the Buddist sect Santi Asoke rose to prominence. S.A. preached vegetarianism, and it stated (correctly) that praying to statues is blatanly against Buddhism. Their monks and followers rather believed in a kind of "karma yoga" (I'm using a Hindu term here), the philosophy that good deeds will benefit society in general as much as the person performing the good deeds. S.A.'s veggie restaurants (many of which are still around) served/serve their meals at at cost price. It's regarded as a service to society.

 

Now what happened to S.A.? As its monks attracted more and more followers, the Sangha, the highest Buddhist council, became worried about losing its influence and with it, money. Through the machinations of the Sangha, S.A. was banned by law as anti-Buddhist, and its founder was thrown in jail for a time. Now, again - if you study Buddhism closely, you'll quickly realize that S.A. is much closer to real Buddhism than main-stream Thai Buddhism can ever hope to be.

Also see the difference in leadership: S.A.'s head monk lived in a simple wooden hut (I'd been to their centre somewhere in Bangkapi or thereabouts once) and walked barefoot, while the Sankaraat, the head of the Sangha, gets driven around in a comfy Merc. When he turned 90 last year, there were several days of lavish celebrations laid on at his residence at Wat Boworniwet in Bkk.

 

"Putting that fact aside, what is supposed to happen to most of this money? You mentioned that the chao avaat will have access to the money well."

 

The fees for the rituals are kept by the monks, as far as I know. The chao avaat administers the temple funds which often constitute huge donations. Many have access to hundreds of millions of Baht. In fact, many temples have so much money that in the late eighties the idea was floated for the temples to act as banks, lending out money. The plan was shelfed though.

 

"On the monks in the forrest, did the one you talked to seem like he was certain of his decision to live in the forrest?

 

They were, but then of course the monkhood isn't necessarily permanent - one can leave anytime. In know of one monk who lived in a little forest monastery in Phuket who gave up after a few years. No idea where he is now.

[Guest]

Just to clarify something in my last post. When I said Santi Asoke was banned by law, I was not quite precise. S.A.'s monks were prohibited from wearing the regular monks' robes and they can't call themselves Buddhist monks. They're not banned from going on alms rounds. The crackdown on the sect was quite efficient though; I think a few years ago there were only 100 or so monks left, and I haven't heard anything about them at all recently. Santi Asoke followers run some organic farms (one is near Nakhon Pathom) which supply their veggie restaurants with fresh produce.