Kick those immoral monks out!?!?

[jasmine]

[color:"red"] What's the name of that "luang pho" again, who curses all his visitors with the choicest terms of abuse while chain-smoking and blowing the smoke in their faces?? Too many of these fellows are nothing but crooks in holy robes, preying on the gullible. I love it when a monk tells me to control my desires and he can't even quit smoking!

 

[/color]

 

I know who you meant and I don't know what to say!! ::.

 

Have you read a poem about his desire to be "left alone"? I have a feeling that he really wants to be left alone. My mother told me about a monk who said something one day and some fools interpretted his words as numbers to be used for lotteries and they happened to be right. Within hours, the monk was swamped by people that within 2 weeks, he left in the middle of the night to get away. He is probably in a jungle some place now.

 

The saddest part, IMO, is the way some people forces some monks to accommodate. For example, a girl going off to be a prostitute and she wants a blessing. As far as I know, many monks will not refuse to perform the blessings ceremony because refusing will be harder for the girl and I don't think girls will say "please bless me so I can sell my p****y". ::

 

My family and I have a habit of buying supplies to give to temples and all these monks, they always gave us blessings until in my last trip. This monk (new head of the temple) will not touch the money and he said he does NOT give blessings. I remember laughing and said I don't need a blessing, I just want to donate what I can, that is all. It upset my mother because she does not understand, she thinks a monk should give a blessing for any donation.

 

There are many levels of people, as the Lord Buddha said "Some are like a lotus seed, in mud, some becomes lotus flower seeing the sunlight and can be taught higher learning, some such as the seeds will be fish and turtle food". Too bad that many Thais feel that monks can do magic and the expectation forces some (human) monks tobecome greedy.

 

Jasmine

[jasmine]

[color:"red"] A Western friend of mine who was ordained as a monk in Thailand, and a genuinely spiritual person, has nothing but scorn for Thai monks. [/color]

 

With dued respect, if he is really a spiritual person, he should NOT feel scorn. He should be beyond feeling snug and arrogant, don't you think??

 

Really, if he still feels the scorn which is likely comes from that he thinks he is superior, he should study more, methinks strongly

 

Jasmine

[Guest]

jasmine said:

[color:"red"] A Western friend of mine who was ordained as a monk in Thailand, and a genuinely spiritual person, has nothing but scorn for Thai monks. [/color]

 

With dued respect, if he is really a spiritual person, he should NOT feel scorn. He should be beyond feeling snug and arrogant, don't you think??

 

Really, if he still feels the scorn which is likely comes from that he thinks he is superior, he should study more, methinks strongly

 

Jasmine

 

You certainly have a point here, but "spiritual" of course doesn't mean perfect or enlightenened, does it. I regard someone as spiritual if a person genuinely tries find the "truth" within, as Buddha would have put it. But that person may still have many imperfections at the same time.

[Guest]

jasmine said:

Have you read a poem about his desire to be "left alone"? I have a feeling that he really wants to be left alone. My mother told me about a monk who said something one day and some fools interpretted his words as numbers to be used for lotteries and they happened to be right. Within hours, the monk was swamped by people that within 2 weeks, he left in the middle of the night to get away. He is probably in a jungle some place now."

 

If he is, he's probably one of the "good guys". There was a mae chee a few years ago who "predicted" some lottery numbers correctly and she gained many followers. When her ensuing predictions turned out to be duds, the followers got violent and chased her out from that particular village. Taught her a lesson, I guess. On the other hand, it shows that the village folk were only interested in material gain, nothing spiritual.

 

"The saddest part, IMO, is the way some people forces some monks to accommodate. For example, a girl going off to be a prostitute and she wants a blessing. As far as I know, many monks will not refuse to perform the blessings ceremony because refusing will be harder for the girl and I don't think girls will say "please bless me so I can sell my p****y."

 

Would a genuine monk, one who really follows the dhamma, let himself be forced to perform such nonsense?? I'd rather say he'd put his foot down and say no. But you're right, the girls certainly won't say, bless my "jim", they'd rather ask for a general blessing, for good fortune in all circumstances.

[pattaya127]

For example, a girl going off to be a prostitute and she wants a blessing.

------------------------

Buddhism in Thailand is mixed unreparably with a lot of superstitions, in a way I am agreeing with the poster who said if for ex., monks bless shop owners, or a dept store on its day of opening, why should the business of prostitution be discriminated?

 

This has been the reform of thai Buddhism in the 20th century: monks are to ingratiate the folks who come to be blessed for good luck, and all the merit delivered is basically paid with by money, which is now (alas!) an integral part of the covenant between monkhood and laicity, Monks being basically merit sellers.

A far cry from the idea of salvation and vipassana meditation.

 

religious institutions are not divorced from society, and they also reflect some of the trappings of the world around them.

[markle]

PhallusDei said:

Would a genuine monk, one who really follows the dhamma, let himself be forced to perform such nonsense?? I'd rather say he'd put his foot down and say no.

 

This is where Buddhism and Buddhist monks(and certainly the SEA version of them) differ from the role of preists in the Judeo-Cristian tradition. Monks are not the representative of God passing judgement on people, determining this or that person is worthy, evil, good, bad etc. They are simply guides for people, by trying to live under the principles of Dharma, on the road to enlightenment. They don't possess any authority or power (in the general sense) which is quite different from the position of the Church.

This is the problem I have with the sentiments you and the title of this post are expressing. On what authority are you making this judgement and who are you to 'seuak'

[Guest]

markle said:

PhallusDei said:

Would a genuine monk, one who really follows the dhamma, let himself be forced to perform such nonsense?? I'd rather say he'd put his foot down and say no.

 

This is where Buddhism and Buddhist monks(and certainly the SEA version of them) differ from the role of preists in the Judeo-Cristian tradition. Monks are not the representative of God passing judgement on people, determining this or that person is worthy, evil, good, bad etc. They are simply guides for people, by trying to live under the principles of Dharma, on the road to enlightenment. They don't possess any authority or power (in the general sense) which is quite different from the position of the Church."

 

Hmmm, if someone's supposed to be a "guide", he/she should know which way to go ... And how can that be without judgement or steering into a certain direction ...?

 

And you're plainly wrong, too: Monks in Thailand ARE seen as representativies of the Buddha - not of "God" of course, as there's no such entity in Buddhism - but of a being which carries as much authority. You're argument is invalid.

 

"This is the problem I have with the sentiments you and the title of this post are expressing. On what authority are you making this judgement and who are you to 'seuak'

 

I make the judgement on the basis of a long, professional study (20+ years) of Eastern religions, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Buddhism in particular, with a bit of Jainism thrown in. And this is not theoretical study, but study in numerous places in Asia, right where the "action" is. If you call my opinions an attempt at "sueak", you're judgmental, too!

 

Now, the problem is that many Westerners who haven't lived for an extended period in Asia (I don't know if you have) display a tendency to romanticize everything "Eastern", especially Eastern philosophy(ies) and religion(s). I could go into the historical and psychological reasons for this, but I think this would lead to a very long and boring treatise which would go way beyond what this board is supposed to be (no offence intended).

 

Let's say, we have different points of view, because we have had different experiences and different insights ... ::

[pattaya127]

I make the judgement on the basis of a long, professional study (20+ years) of Eastern religions, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Buddhism in particular, with a bit of Jainism thrown in.

--------------------------

Cool! ::

 

 

I could go into the historical and psychological reasons for this, but I think this would lead to a very long and boring treatise which would go way beyond what this board is supposed to be

-------------------------------

 

Wrong!

 

This board has sections where, oh i dunno, 5 or 6 of us , would consider your thread about this subject a worthy thread.

And be lengthy as you wish, Nightlife may close at 1am , but A&C is open 24 hours ( I am putting a few beers in the fridge :!

[markle]

Hmmm, if someone's supposed to be a "guide", he/she should know which way to go ... And how can that be without judgement or steering into a certain direction ...?

A guide in the sense of setting an example, not judging the actions of others and dictating a certain direction, whether others choose to follow his/her example is up to them and their karma.

 

Monks in Thailand ARE seen as representativies of the Buddha - not of "God" of course, as there's no such entity in Buddhism - but of a being which carries as much authority.

The Buddha was and is seen as a guide, his life an teachings an example to be followed if one is to achieve Nirvana. Monks are adherents to his Way. Being judgemental of others has never been a intergral part of the Way. Plainly you are confused.

 

I make the judgement on the basis of a long, professional study (20+ years) of Eastern religions, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Buddhism in particular, with a bit of Jainism thrown in. And this is not theoretical study, but study in numerous places in Asia, right where the "action" is.

 

Now, the problem is that many Westerners who haven't lived for an extended period in Asia (I don't know if you have) display a tendency to romanticize everything "Eastern", especially Eastern philosophy(ies) and religion(s).

Oh that's where I went wrong! I should have spent 20++ years of 'professional study'! Then I would have the arrogance to pass judgement on others. I would get over my 'romanticism' and see that a central part of Buddhism is not the pursuit of individual salvation through contemplation of one's own actions and attitude and ensure adherance to the Way by meditation, but to dictate the strict adherence to the Dharma by others.

 

I discussed this with my significant other and she pretty much confirmed my understanding after 16 years of living with Thais and Buddhism (as opposed to 'professionally studying' them/it). Judgement of others and strict adherence to an abstract set of 'laws'(the Dharma is a set of guiding principles for a easier and quicker achievement of Nirvana, not commandments to break) are not integral part of Thai culture and spiritual life. This is why the Rule of Law in the Western legal sense is so weak here.

[pattaya127]

I would agree that studying Buddhism ain't gonna help much when trying to understand the idiosyncracies or shortcomings of the thai Sangha, thai monks or thai practice of Buddhism.

 

We can't divorce society from religion, unless one lives in total loneliness.

 

Still, the miracle of this religion/philosophy is that, besides all the cultural mark-ups added to it, when the Light hits you, you get it and can see thru all the folklore.

 

You also understand instantly you must rely on yourself, and that what comes initially, naturally, as a helpful contribution from gurus/elders, Sangha/temple life, ritual, method, studies (hehe!!!), whatever, becomes an encumbrance or an impediment. The example being of the clutches one does not need when a broken leg is cured and healthy.