Kick those immoral monks out!?!?

[jasmine]

[color:"red"] The other scumbags were rather interested in my expensive camera(s) or the mating habits of Western females. In a nutshell, I have zero respect for 99% of Thai monks. When I see them I cringe.

 

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Many Thais feel the same way as you. However, please be reminded that none of us can judge until we know the monks better.

 

IMO, many monks are pressured to show what they can build. I knew a monk who was in the monkhood for 16 years and just left 7 months ago who built a temple from the ground up. His main reason for leaving the monkhood was that he had no time to learn the scriptures and be better spiritually so he left for "I can build these buildings without being a monk, but I cannot be a monk for I don't have time to practice what Lord Buddha taught."

 

Many Thais still do not understand the monks so the do have pressure to do certain things according to the people's belief. Some monks are intelligent enough to teach the people to make people understand, however, most do not want to bother.

 

Also, I do respect those "forest monks" much more than regular ones. My last trip to Thailand, I could not keep my mouth shut when I saw a monk sitting (like he was meditating) at a bus stop with his bowl in the front for money like beggars do I asked him what his purpose was and he said he wanted to show how to meditate. I really got to his case about showing off and actually begging for money quite severely that my mother had to pull me away, how I wanted to report him. :: Some days later, I went by, he was no longer there, people told me that he had stopped being there. Monks like that are just using the robes to gain.

 

Jasmine

[jasmine]

Hi,

 

I do support the Thai temples, Loutian too, in the States but I do NOT support individual monks.

 

"Blessings" is a term that many people in various ways. Most folks in Thailand feel that "blessings" from monks who are supposed to pratice the teachings faithfully, is a good blessing. Many monks do this pratice to help people phsychologically. So with that in mind, a blessing for any business is good including going off to sell ones' selves simply becuase the blessings are not for prostitution but to make the persons feel protected by the power of the Lord Buddha teachings.

 

In my last trip to Thailand, bought a new truck for the family, the first thing my mother wanted to do was getting a monk's blessings for the truck. My brother and I kept our mouths shut and bless that monk, he said "No need for blessings, my blessings are not above Karma!". Boy I like that monk, have got to go back to see him. Then my mother said that "These monks become so modern", she does not understand.

 

Jasmine

[Guest]

jasmine said:

"Some monks are intelligent enough to teach the people to make people understand, however, most do not want to bother."

 

Yes, Jasmine, you're right, there are intelligent monks, but to me they're much too few. Thailand has 300,000 monks (which, intererestingly, is more than it has soldiers!), but how many intellectual or spiritual giants are there?

 

I do believe the afore-mentionend Phra Jamnien to be fairly enlightened, but when I see his temple in Krabi these days, I have the feeling he makes too many compromises to attract run-of-the-mill-followers and their donations. What has a garish statue of the Chinese goddess Mae Kwan Yim to do in a Thai temple? I think it's supposed to garner donations from Chinese, but then all this may be a decision by someone who actually runs the temple (and the account books), possibly not Phra Jamnien himself.

 

Certainly above the book was Phra Buddhadasa, who died a few years ago, the founder of Wat Suan Mokh in Chaiya. Whenever he said something, it really had some meaning and made perfect sense. An exceptional personality.

 

Contrast him with all these country bumpkin "luang pho" who one finds all over Thailand, highly respected for their "powers" by the uneducated rural population, but without any real substance other than freak value. What's the name of that "luang pho" again, who curses all his visitors with the choicest terms of abuse while chain-smoking and blowing the smoke in their faces?? Too many of these fellows are nothing but crooks in holy robes, preying on the gullible. I love it when a monk tells me to control my desires and he can't even quit smoking!

[pattaya127]

 

The only monks I have had valuable conversations with (I speak Thai) were forest monks who purposely live like paupers. They usually don't even wear shoes and often sleep on "pillows" which are but chunks of wood.

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This is truly interesting, can you tell us more about these monks, where were they staying, how far from the villages, and what was the tenure of the conversation you had with them. WEre you able to see them many times? Etc.....

[pattaya127]

I think where some thais reconciliate themselves in the midst of commercialized monkhood, if they care at all, is that Buddhism in Thailand is both the ubiquitous institution we all know (which like all institutions in modern age, shows some decadence) and a personal practice, which is its foundation ("Set about to save yourself diligently").

 

If one goes to the monk with a pure mind or a selfless intention, then for thais, that is what counts, not that the monk is found to be corrupt. they might rant at the dinner table about it, but their good action in itself is still standing, even if it had yto be about giving him food, or money, the individual act redeems from all pollution around it.

 

Of course, when the people go to get something for themselves, rather than give or kneel to the Dharma selflessly, it's all back to samsara, wheel of life and tutti quanti...

[sickbuffalo]

whosyourdaddy said:

My mates father in law is a monk because he can make more money at it than rural farming.

 

A monk is not allowed to touch, let alone own money. Its hard to see how he can make more money at it than being a farmer.

[pattaya127]

A monk is not allowed to touch, let alone own money.

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I doubt this is the exact rule. Monks do have a little money on them, some services or things, they do have to pay for.

 

They can also have some savings or properties (on the side), no one asks them to give it away, especially as the monkhood may be temporary.

What i think for sure is that he cannot receive money hand to hand, though an enveloppe remedies to that.

Also, though this kind of money is not directly for him officially, a popular monk, a popular temple may indeed ride on a evercoming supply of money, which may help the general upkeep of the monks in that temple, or make the temple a well-dotted temple, attracting even more disciples... and money.

Definitely, there should not be personal use, meant ostentatious, of this gift of money, but indirectly this may happen, he owes nothing but is chauffeured in a mercedes, for example. etc....

[Guest]

pattaya127 said:

 

The only monks I have had valuable conversations with (I speak Thai) were forest monks who purposely live like paupers. They usually don't even wear shoes and often sleep on "pillows" which are but chunks of wood.

--------------------

This is truly interesting, can you tell us more about these monks, where were they staying, how far from the villages, and what was the tenure of the conversation you had with them. WEre you able to see them many times? Etc.....

 

When you travel the bylanes through the countryside you see some of these monks walking about. The true hardcore of their ilk don't use any mode of transport since, I believe, one of the 227 rules that regulate the monks' lives prohibits transport other than your own feet. One of the rules even prohibits the touching of money, but I reckon this is regarded as impractical these days by virtually all monks.

 

I've seen quite a number of these monks in the South, but I don't doubt that there are many in the other regions as well. I've often stopped the car to talk to them when they were walking along the road. They usually bemoan the materialism that has engulfed Thailand and its Buddhist clergy, just as you or I would. These monks, I believe, do understand the true meaning of Buddhism: Look into yourself and find the truth within. And to reach that goal, material luxuries would only be a distraction. The body is but a bag of bones and flesh, impermanent by nature, what really counts is the indestructible soul or self. To walk on this lofty path is extremely difficult, of course, and I have no doubt that many of these monks eventually "drop out". It probably takes a few billion people until a Buddha is born.

 

The forest dwellings aren't necessarily far from villages or towns. The one that I mentioned in Phuket is actually on the Eastern fringes of Phuket Town, in a small forested area on the way to Ko Siray. I do remember they used to have all-night meditation sessions there on some Buddhist holidays, with many local people attending. I know of other such places in the forests between Trang and Phattalung, and one or two near Betong in the deep South.

 

The term "forest monastery" doesn't necessarily imply that it it has to be located completely out of reach from the laymen, I believe. I think it rather alludes to the fact that these monks try to live without any modern conveniences, separated from society in an environment conducive to meditation, but not inaccessible. Other than the regular temples, these forest monasteries don't have a viharn or bot, they only consist of a few kutis (wooden huts, monks' dwellings) and maybe a common eating room/kitchen. I think most such monasteries wouldn't house more than half a dozen or maybe 10 monks. Locals living nearby supply them with food. The monastery in Phuket that I mentioned was vegetarian and every morning some local women would bring them food from vegetarian restaurants. They also grew some of their own vegetables and herbs. I heard later that the monks had given up on being veggie; I think it was because its charismatic head monk, a staunch vegetarian, had left.

 

Speaking of food, just as a sideline: There's a Thai temple in Patan near Kathmandu, Nepal. There are always a few Thai monks living there. A few years ago, the Thai embassy in Kathmandu supplied them with Thai food, because the monks couldn't get themselves eat the local fare. (I'm not sure if this generous catering service is still in place, might well be.)

 

If I'm not mistaken, being choosy is not what the Buddha really taught ...

[sickbuffalo]

They are called thudong monks.

 

There is a very good book about them called "Forest Recollections" by Kamala Tiyavanich.

[pattaya127]

This is a bit different. Forest monks (thudong like SB says) are rare these days, and the ones who stay in forest monasteries are not exactly Thudong, but serious practitioners of the Dharma.

I read the book SB mentions, it explains very well what to be a thudong monk meant, which implies practicing rigorous ascetism (not just about food) and spending much time outside of the monasteries or temples, in the wild. Basically, like an ermit.

Very few monks, nowadays, can withstand the rigors of such a life, and the Sangha has not encouraged this type of practice. In the book, the author mentions about a dozen Thudong monks, with disciples, but I think everyone of them is dead now, though some of the monasteries we are talking about have been established by them or in their name. But the monks in these congregations are not exactly errant monks, as the master was.