"The pictures are to graphic to show you."

[MaiLuk]

>>hero? what makes a poor cunt a hero who died for the economical benefits of an elite whose children do not have to die such a death?<<

 

Well lets not get too ideological here. Installing democracy over there (if it were possible) might have some world wide benefits, and not just for the elite of the world.

[MaiLuk]

>>Also, and strictly speaking about the U.S., there's probably not very much money or honor to be made if they run such a story or video. It would be deemed "unpatriotic", "you-hate-America" and so on and on..... <<

 

A large number of americans are opposed to the war and their would be a following for a news org that went against the media mainstream. You have agood point that a typical news org does not want to offend, could affect willingness of business to advertise. But I don't think it can explain the complete blackout.

[Guest]

There are organizations in the US that do print what should be printed, but each and every one of them is being put under the fine magnifying glass so as to find something 'wrong' with them so as to bring about their closure. This is nothing new. During World War II, some in the US tried to tell the people what was going on; some lost their lives. During the Vietnam War, the same scenario was played out.

 

What I find interesting was as freedom of the press was surpressed during World War II in Germany, the same thing was going on in the US.

 

As for democracy: "what is democracy?" The "right to vote", as we are told or is it the right to have an active participation and say in one's government?

[BelgianBoy]

All,

 

I have no idea what is reported and shown on US stations, but it was here on Belgian TV tonite : the video of the assault on the mosque, the 3-4 wounded & dead bodies, and the marine "finishing" the wounded guy off.

The fucker deserves life for cold-blooded murder like that.

Plus an interview with a marine general explaining a full investigation is underway and that the whole unit has been taking out of Falluja.

 

BB

[Guest]

>>>HOWEVER, we have to be careful about sending a marine against suicidal insurgents then charging him with murder. That marine may have genuinely considered the insurgent a threat. It may turn out he was wrong, but the day before, a marine was killed and five others wounded by a "dead" body.<<<

 

 

IMHO that marine should not be courtmartialled. he was sent to war to kill people, sorry, to bring "freedom and democracy" to irak. he was put into the most extreme situation a human can face and did react to that situation his way. the ones who should be courtmartialled are the ones in the offices who sent the bloke and many others into another completely unnecessary, avoidable war.

 

 

 

 

>>>Well lets not get too ideological here. Installing democracy over there (if it were possible) might have some world wide benefits, and not just for the elite of the world. <<<

 

not ideological.

installing democracy? laughable!

so far everything that the opponents of the war have predicted has come true. according to bush's plans right now we should have a prospering irak with democracy. instead we have a collapsing situation with an incredible human toll.

you americans were cheated by your government, on all fronts. you were lied to, given faked intelligence, coerced into a war that was/is illegal by all accounts.

who has so far benefitted? certain large corporations that most members of the present government in the US are closely connected to.

i don't see ideology - i see a massive fraud, a crime against humanity.

 

yesterday i saw fog of war, the documentary with/about mcnamara. the similarities are astounding, yes, things today are even worse than in the cold war.

a paranoid US government which has completely miscalculated a situation, caught up in a worsening mess. young american soldiers, irakis - civilians and combattants suffering the brunt.

armchair warriors and war profiteers leading the world into chaos, and a perfected propaganda machine.

just look at mcnamara in the interviews - a haunted man by the incredible human toll his mistakes have cost, a man seeing the end of his life nearing and being scared shitless of the judgement.

 

when will we start learning?

 

i am so disgusted that i have even stopped watching the news.

[Dexi]

I agree...it`s really depressing watching the news recently,just feel so angry about the Bush-Blair axis of evil and what they are doing in the Middle East...Perhaps we should ask why this offensive was launched on Falluja...so elections can be held as soon as possible...and why are the US so keen for elections - because they know the system is garanteed to give ligitimousy to their puppet regime in Irak.So once their people are duly elected they can pretend to the world that Irak is a free country.US troops will of course remain in large numbers to protect US interests and prevent hostile elements gaining influence .Perhaps after the puppet Iraki govt.is settled in we will see action taken against Iran because they threaten the US-Israeli dominance in the region by daring to start a nuclear program.My guess is Irans nuclear sites will be destroyed by air strike by Israeli planes before too long...Bush will pretend to be surprised and mildly rebuke his friend Sharon whilst having supplied all the imformation necessary in secret to allow the raid...

[MaiLuk]

My mistake. Al Jazeera was talking about an officer in baghdad being charged with murder, nothing to do with the mosque shooting.

 

Here is an excerpt from an AP article where *experts* were interviewed:

 

-------------------------

International legal experts said protection of injured combatants once they are out of action is a basic rule in warfare but that the Marine shown in the video may have acted in self-defense.

 

 

Charles Heyman, a British infantry veteran and senior defense analyst with Jane's Consultancy Group in London, defended the Marine, saying soldiers are taught that the enemy "is at his most dangerous when he is severely injured."

 

Other experts contacted by The Associated Press were careful to avoid a public judgment because of the dangerous and uncertain situation in Fallujah, where U.S. troops were still fighting insurgents.

 

"It's clearly recognized that people in combat situations are under enormous strain," international Red Cross spokesman Florian Westphal said in Geneva. "Obviously, we were not on the spot so we cannot judge the precise circumstances of what was being shown here."

 

Westphal said the Geneva Conventions are clear: Protection of wounded combatants once they are out of action is an absolute requirement.

 

However, the status of the wounded man was unclear. A different Marine unit had come under fire from the mosque on Friday. Those Marines stormed the building, killing 10 men and wounding five, according to Sites. He said Marines treated the wounded and left them.

 

The same five men were in the mosque Saturday when Marines from another unit arrived. Westphal said he couldn't say for sure from NBC's account whether the man was a prisoner.

 

Heyman said there is a danger that a wounded enemy may try to detonate a hidden firearm or a grenade, and if the man made the slightest move "in my estimation they would be justified in shooting him."

 

However, legal distinctions are unlikely to carry much weight among many Iraqis, especially Sunnis already angry over the Fallujah offensive. Allawi said he ordered the assault after Fallujah's leaders refused to hand over Jordanian terror mastermind Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other foreign fighters.

----------------------------------

 

Complete article here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=4&u=/ap/20041116/ap_on_re_us/marine_shooting

--------------------

[MaiLuk]

 

 

>>who has so far benefitted? certain large corporations that most members of the present government in the US are closely connected to.

i don't see ideology - i see a massive fraud, a crime against humanity.<<

 

Large corporations always benefit from war, whether a "good" or "bad" war. Lets not lose sight of the fact that the insurgents are sunni. Their strongman saddam has been removed from power and rather than accept that democracy will now rule the country, they will fight to the death trying to derail the election. They want the sunni minority to regain its iron grip.

 

>>installing democracy? laughable!<<

 

Whats laughable about it? The iraqis who sign up to be police in their new democratic country, and then are murdered by the hundreds by sunni insurgents, they were not laughing

 

 

Whats laughable is how the holy roller types use "the defense of islam" to manipulate these poor militant bastards into murdering and dying. Defend islam from who? Are their americans on the ballot? No. The election is to see what followers of islam will run the country. The election will go forward since the number of insurgents has been and will continue to be reduced by the marines.

 

People who rant about the unjustness of war (and this iraq war in particular) are not helping the iraqis. The sooner we kill off the majority of insurgents (we'll never completely eliminate them) the better off the iraqis will be. And then we can start spending the $18 billion set aside by the US taxpayers solely for the purpose of rebuilding iraq.

 

This is not an unjust war. Here in america we wonder everyday whether the sacrifice that bush committed us to is worth it and if it will succeed. The nation is split. But everyone wants to see iraq succeed. Of course the iraqis want to overcome the sunni insurgency more than anyone else. They are happy to see falluja taken down tho they won't say it too loudly in case a militant might hear and cut off their head or blow them up.

 

Do the two largest european countries not already signed up want to step up and help out the iraqis? Or were they only in iraq prior to the war for the lucrative contracts with the former leader/murderer of iraq?

[MaiLuk]

>>and why are the US so keen for elections - because they know the system is garanteed to give ligitimousy to their puppet regime in Irak.So once their people are duly elected they can pretend to the world that Irak is a free country.<<

 

Me thinks the allawi regime if elected will be much more independent than anyone anticipated. So be it. The US will not tell people how to vote. The US will stay at the direction of the elected government.

 

And Iran hopefully will be mindful of what happened in iraq. If it influences Iran to act in a certain way then that is a good thing. Do you want iran to be nuclear armed? I don't.

[Guest lazyphil]

Alot of the insurgents are from Chechnaya, London etc etc....trouble makers. They should fuck off home and in turn the Marines can leave the Iraqis in peace.