Another for Prof. Scum

[Guest]

I know the swastika symbol was hijacked by the Nazis and is in fact a good luck symbol deeply rooted in Brahminism (or is it Hinduism? - not sure) and is often seen adorning temples and spiritual regalia.

What I would like to know is if there is any linguistic link between 'swastika' and the Thai greeting 'Sawasdee'.

I must say Scum, that I am deeply impressed by, and appreciative of, your posts in this folder. Although I could never aspire to such giddy academic heights such as you display here, I do find that your posts provide me with a deeper and broader understanding of the culture and language that I am trying to embrace. Keep them coming!

Regards

Arai wa

[Guest]

Thanks for your interest, Sir, and here's the answer:

Thai "sawasdee" is derived from Sanskrit "svasthya", which means "health". So, every time you greet someone you wish him/her good health or well-being.

The word "swastika" (more precisely "svastika") is made up of the syllables sva (self), asti (is), ka (a suffix denoting a carrier, holder).

So, the "svastika" is the carrier/sign of well-being, or good luck.

It's origins are disputed. It could symbolise the spokes of a wheel, since the Aryans were quite obsessed with horses and horse-carts; it was the horse-carts and the Aryans' better war technique which were largely resposible for their conquering of India.

On the other hand, the swastika could symbolise twigs laid out ritually (cross-wise) in a sacrifial fire. The Aryans were deep into sacrifices, ritual fires, incantations and magic, as propounded in their holy books, the Vedas.

You may be aware that the Nazis made one fatal mistake: They turned the swastika around from a wheel which looks like it's running to the left, to one turning to the right (the ends of the four "spokes" are turned the other way round). Thus, the sign of good luck lost its potency and good luck turned into ... well, a holocaust.

Just another example of a word made up similarly to "svastika":

In Sanskrit, an atheist is a "nastika". The word is made up of na (not), asti (is), and the afore-mentioned ka. So, an atheist is someone who says "there is not", a negator.

Sawasdee, SB.

[ July 14, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ]

[Guest]

Many thanks for the swift reply.

Your answer, as always, clear and interesting.

Many thanks

Arai wa

[Guest]

Hi

Another interesting information as I had long been interested in the origins of the swastika but never bothered to research the topic. The reason for my interest is that the original swastika symbol is used in Japanese maps to denote Buddhist temples. I don't know if the same symbol is used in other Asian countries, perhaps China or Korea? My Thai and Bangkok maps in roman alphabet certainly does't use the swastika.

By the way, the swastika is called "manji" in Japanese and I believe there are mystical Buddhist connotations. Oooops, I'm straying too far to the west.

Ciao!

micsnee

[Guest]

bMicsnee,

being a younger religion, Buddhism must have adopted the swastika from Hinduism. With its migration east, the swastika's significance changed. In Chinese or Japanese Buddhism, it stands for the number 10,000, as well as timelessness and eternity. Sometimes Buddhas are depicted with a swastika on their breast; I remember seeing quite a number of such Buddhas in the most famous Buddhist temple on Penang (I can't recall the name at the moment).

Swastika-like symbols have also been found in Mesopotamia, Skandinavia and even South America. That doesn't mean of course that Indian influence extended all the way to South America - there are only so many symbols man can invent and sometimes similarities are bound to occur unconnected to each other. But maybe future research can spring a few surprises.

Mesopotamia and Skandinavia were of course under varying degrees of influence of Indo-Aryan civilisation - the latter very much so. The Skandinavian gods were very much alike the early Hindu (Vedic) gods; cultural connections extended up to Ireland and the Celts. The latter even performed the legendary "horse sacrifice", just like the ancient Indians.

[ July 15, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ]

[Guest]

Hi Prof. Scum

Thanks as always for taking time for these interesting comments.

I checked out Japanese dictionary and interestingly enough the kanji characters for manji (swastika) are: man = 10,000 and ji = written character (like kanji or alphabet), therefore manji = character or perhaps symbol for 10,000.

I'm ready for you and others to shudder and LOL but through my sheer ignorance, I have believed only until just recently through this board that Buddhism preceded Hinduism and thus Buddhism was vanquished by the latecommer in the Indian region. So my comments at being befuddled that Thai court would be strongly influenced by Hindu. I guess this would be like claiming that Romans preceded the Greeks!

But today I picked up "India: A History" by John Keay. I'm aware that one 500+ pages volume encompassing all of the Indian history would be cursory at best but it should give me some basis in trying to get a feel for the culture there. Perhaps after reading this I might be able to spark up some courage to ask you out for a beer!

Again thanks so much.

Ciao!

micsnee

[Guest]

Micsnee,

I happen to own that book by John Keay myself but haven't yet found the time to read it. If you're through with it you can invite me for drink, since then you'd be one up one me and can tell me all about it.

Cheers, SB.

[elef]

Hi micsnee,

you are not entirely wrong.

Hinduism 1500 BC

Judaism 1000 BC

Buddhism 600 BC

Christianity 30 AD

Islam 600 AD

But Bhagavadgita 200 BC - so in fact Buddhism influenced Hinduism (as described by SB).

Most religions having in fact a development - if you are catholic 1854 is important.

elef

[elef]

Hi SB,

200 BC is what my encyclopedia states. Actually some give it a earlier dating:

"The Bhagavadgita is later than the greater movement represented by the early Upanishads and earlier than the period of development of the philosophic systems and their formulation in sutras. Its date may bassigned to the 5-th century B.C." http://www.hssworld.org/all/great_people/gita.html

But I accept your theory as it was in a developing process under a long time. Have you seen this homepage? http://sanskrit.gde.to/

elef

[Guest]

Hi Elef,

I guess the date of 200 BC in the encyclopedia simplifies things a bit. Yes, some sources date the Mahabharata even to the 5th century BC - after all, the core event described in it, the battle of Kurukshetra, is supposed to have taken place between 850 and 650 BC.

But often these sources are died-in-the-wool, hard-core Hindu writers or researchers who tend to get a bit over-enthusiastic. Recently, the BJP in Northern India even wanted history books changed to the effect that they were to state that the Aryans were the original inhabitants of India - which is of course outrageous nonsense.

A few months ago, a Tamil scholar claimed that the name Krung Thep is actually Tamil, meaning "Monkey Forest". Every Thai over the age of six knows that the name means "City of Angels" (krung is from Khmer I believe, meaning "town", and thep stems from Sanskrit deva, "god/s").

Ethnic chauvinism is a trait which even Indian researchers find hard to get rid of.

The Mahabharata contains a hotch-potch of ideas and themes, and some elements even hail back to pre-Aryan times. But they were assembled much, much later.

You do get a glimpse here of how difficult it can be to date scriptures; controversy reigns all the time.

 

If you want to see a truly raving loony Hindu/Indian nationalist website, go to www.swordoftruth.com.

Cheers, SB.

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ]