elef Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Hi, yes marxism/communism was(is?) also a sort of religion. Religion always has been used by people in power to control the masses. But Marx (a bad economist building his Das Kapital on too old theories, but better as historian and propagandist) identified the changes in economy as a base for changes in ideologic superstructure. This is of course correct even if there exists a double relationship. So in fact French Revolution and the development of capitalism was not a substitute for religion but having an effect on religions, cultures and languages. Today we have a cyberworld influencing via internet. Fundamentalists in Afghanistan and China try to stop internet. At least the communists should study Marx and see this is impossible. So in future we will have a Cyberenglish - probably with very different pronunciation over the world. Maybe the indian English (Peter Sellers' Birdie nam nam) will be the dominating form. Regards elef [ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: elef ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Interesting thread. The swastika symbol is a common sight in Hong Kong temples and in China. Also in Bali (the Hindu influence) -- in fact, I once stayed in a hotel in Bali called the Swastik. The hotel logo was, you guessed it, a swastika. I wonder how many German and Israeli tourists have stayed there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 quote: Originally posted by elef: 1200 AD - maybe Shintoism represented by the era of shoguns (I don't know enough about Shintoism to say if this is correct). Hi Shinto (kanji = god + road/way, so literally way of god) grew out of the indegenous belief of the Japanese. Basically, spirits dwell in both natural and man-made objects, especially large trees and rocks and mountains and buildings so shrines both formal and informal are built to placate the spirits. Japanese mythology incorporates Shinto philosophy, although I've heard that many of the myths have Chinese or Korean counterparts. Emperor's dynasty started in the mythical age and Shinto grants divine status to the emperor (but emperor was/is never a Judaic/Christian/Islamic God). So Shinto would be much much older than 1200 CE. I believe the introduction of Buddhism, the first true rival to Shinto, into Japan occured around 1200 (I'm just going by murky and faulty memory here), so that perhaps some formalization of Shinto occured around that time. By the way, many emperors took up Buddhism although Shinto rituals were kept up. It was only from the Meiji revolution (1876) when the Emperor Meiji was brought out of powerless but revered court to defeat the Shogun government that Shinto became the state religion. This was to impress upon the people that the emperor had the divine right to rule (although emperors were/are mostly figureheads) and to counter the encroaching Christian foreign powers. Today, as in most of pre-Meiji days, Shinto and Buddhism co-exist quite peacefully in Japan, because I believe neither are so dogmatic (there are exceptions). Perhaps "religion" in the normal Thai culture works in similar fashion. Now going back to the original Indian angle, Khun Scum, it's been a busy week and I've got only as far as King Ashoka in the Indian history. But I'm finally getting some sense of chronology and background. Curiously, the author Keay has not referred to the brahman led religion as Hindu yet (I sense that like Shinto before arrival of Buddhism, Hindu hasn't been formalized yet). He has also mentioned Mahavira and Jianism prominently but hasn't explained its characteristics. Perhaps he wants the curious to look elsewhere. I'm flying out to BKK for a week's stay tomorrow (hooray!) and now will have to undertake an investigation in the Cowboy neighborhood for connection between Soi Asoke and King Ashoka. Khun Scum, in which bar can I find an Ashokan edict? Better yet, can you guide me there? Sorry for rambling on. Ciao! micsnee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Originally posted by micsnee:"Khun Scum, in which bar can I find an Ashokan edict? Better yet, can you guide me there?" No Ashokan edicts that I know of but plenty of apsaras! I'll be in Singapore from July 23rd to 28th morning, so we could meet up after that on Sat./Sun. Keay and other authors of historical tomes usually treat religious issues only in passing. One standard book which would give you a lot of information on religion and culture is "The Wonder that was India" by A.L. Basham. It's available at Amazon. Then there is the 1100 page "Cultural Pasts" by Romila Thapar (Oxford University Press), but that's a really heavy read. Cheers, SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Originally posted by micsnee:"I haven't really bothered with the Falungong. They may be legitimate like the American media likes to portray or they could be another wacko like the Japanese AUM sect ..." Check their website www.falundafa.org. I think they are far removed from people like the AUM gas zombies. "Perhaps I should consider a pilgrimage to the Shaolin temple." ... which was founded by an Indian monk in the 5th century. The Shaolin fighting technique is an adaption of Indian "hatha yoga" and Indian martial arts. So little wonder that the swastika also travelled to China. There is still an ancient martial art practised in Kerala, Kalarippayuttu, which as far as I can judge has many similarities to the Shaolin techniques. [ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Scum_Baggio: No Ashokan edicts that I know of but plenty of apsaras! I'll be in Singapore from July 23rd to 28th morning, so we could meet up after that on Sat./Sun. Hi Khun Scum I like asparagus as well. Thanks for the offer, I hope we can have beer together and hopefully discover a pillar edict etched on some dancing pole! Presumptuos but my email is micslusa@slip.net. Ciao! micsnee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Hi db_sez_aloha, just as a little addition to my mentioning "gyana": Name of the Nepalese king GYANENDRA = gyana (knowledge) + indra (god). [ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: Scum_Baggio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2001 Report Share Posted July 23, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Scum_Baggio: [QBHave you ever seen the symbol of the Falungong movement? It's an Indian-type swastika (called "wan" in Mandarin) surrounded by four Ying and Yang signs. [/QB] Sorry to join back late, it's been hectic. I haven't really bothered with the Falungong. They may be legitimate like the American media likes to portray or they could be another wacko like the Japanese AUM sect -- those looneys who spread sarin gas in Tokyo subway. Now that was quite a sect! They defly combined mystic Hindu and Buddhist mumbo-jumbo into a dogma convincing enough to gain quite a following and acquire impressive real estate (I mean this is expensive Japan, not scorched Utah or Nevada or even Issan!) I know that Buddhist swastika often appears in Japanese ninja comics (hey, among the thousands some are quite good!) and on Hong Kong kungfu movie monks (silly but fun!). Perhaps I should consider a pilgrimage to the Shaolin temple. Ciao! micsnee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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