Etiquette on Mia Lua/mia Noi relations- advice needed

[phoenix]

Short version -long story maybe to follow:

Can anyone, especially old LOS hands, give me some suggestions on etiquette in the triangle between Mia Leua, Mia Noi, and myself?

Or rather, since I am not entirely certain of my status with my Thai GF Nok right now, etiquette between Mia Leua and "Nok", "the mother of (probably) my baby". Baby expected March next year! Paternity to be confirmed by DNA test, but I think it is fairly likely to be mine.

"Nok" (not here real name) is Ex Voodoo BG, only worked bar from May last year to December, since then worked in a downtown restaurant, and is now studying to be a beautician (with my sponsorship). She is 28, lovely personality, very loving and caring woman. I hate to use empty cliches, but "Jai Dee" actually describes her very well. She is not money hungry, and has never been caught lying (and I assure you, I have verified quite a few things she told me).

My first week with Nok, July last year, was described in trip report on the old board under title “Newbie landed in LOS” at the time I still used my old name, “Sputter” Also until recently reposted on Nanaplaza website. I have been back three times since to spend time with her, and really enjoy her company

Khun Sanuk and Stickman may remember meeting me and her at Woodstock late June one night. ( I am a 50+y r old Dutchman with small rimless glasses and an onset of baldness). Ironically, I sat next to an American guy, who had come to pick Stickmans brain about finding and verifying the paternity of a child allegdly had by a former BG Gf of his, I think from Buriram.

At that time, consensus around the table appeared to be it was probably a scam, the Buriram girl I mean. (BTW, heard anymore about that?)

I am pretty certain this is NOT a scam.

Nok has been talking about wanting my baby for some time now. I always declined on grounds that I am already married, and take parenthood too serious to want to create a child that would grow up without his/her father. But, for various reasons I won’t get into now, on my fourth visit in June, standards slipped, and voila! (Nok scanned and emailed me the confirmation of pregnancy from Bumungrad Hospital. During last couple of visits, April and June, we’d gone there at the start of my visit for STD check-ups, all clear!)

I have been with my wife (second marriage) in an English speaking country for the past 19 years. Last few years, our relation was somewhat shaky. I went to LOS on a holiday on my own last year, anticipating beach sitting, but ended up in Bangkok my first night, and things went different from my expectations. I still got to that beach, but with NOK.

My wife started piecing together my illicit life in June, and recovered a (deleted) file from my computer that contained a month’s email correspondence with Nok, as well as some of my posts on the old board. (While I was in LOS, she used a forensic evidence agency to analyse my hard disc. She emailed me the results of the analysis while I was still in LOS)

We are currently looking at whether some form of reconciliation is feasible. During that process, two weeks ago I received an email from Nok, telling me about her pregnancy.

If I am the father, I shall take parenthood very serious, and I need involvement with the child, as well as provide support for the mother.

My options were;

1. Ignore Nok and pregnancy, never come back to LOS, stay with my wife

2. Divorce, come to LOS, live with Nok and be fulltime father.

3. Find an arrangement in between that meets most of the needs of all concerned.

Option one and two, the extremes of a continuum, are not my preference. For the time being, we are going to look at option three.

Four days ago, I told my wife about Nok’s baby, and the likelihood that I am the father.

My wife reacted in an unexpected way. I have great respect for her after her response which was “I am so happy for you that you are going to be a father after all! Congratulations. !” ( I’m in my early fifties, and have no natural children of my own, ‘last of my genetic line)

She then wrote to Nok, by email, and congratulated her with her pregnancy, and welcomed her to the family.

Now we have to figure out how to go about this.

Nok has been saying “Don’t tell your ML, she’ll be too hurt. I’ll not want anything from you, you must stay with her”.

At the same time, I know Nok is lonely, and would love it if I’d come back to her.

There is no question about her living in my country. Residence permit would be very hard, but not impossible. But I have learned so much in the past year about cultural differences, Thai women’s need for family near by, and the potential problems of an ex BG settling in farang country that I don’t see this as an option. I am looking at present at , if the child is mine, spending part of my time with Nok and baby in LOS, part of the time with my wife , either in my country or in or near LOS.

I have an independent investment income which will allow me to do that. I have no idea how this is going to work out, but am going to do my damn best to make it work. My wife is not all that happy at the thought of me spending some of my time with Nok, but is very determined that the interest of the child is the most important, and that a child needs a mother and father if at all possible.

 

Now, after this long rave, a number of questions.

1. Issues of “etiquette” between the three adult participants, especially between Nok and my ML? Can anyone give me a reference about precedents, who has tried this, how does this work from a Thai perspective. What might Nok expect? How might Nok feel about this ‘part time arrangement? I used the term “Mia Noi” in the heading, I am not entirely certain if that will in future be her relation to me, maybe, maybe not. But I haven’t found a better ‘label’ yet. Nok certainly has in the past repeatedly expressed her wish to be my Mia Noi.

Nok responded this morning to my ML’s email to her, apologising for the ‘inconvenience’, and saying she doesn’t want to get between us. But both my ML and I agree that if the baby is mine, the child is “family”, and important. Consequently, Nok becomes “family” . To quote my ML : “I have just seen the movie Secrets and Lies again, and I think we can do this in a better way”

2. DNA testing. Can they do it at Bumungrad hospital? Is there any safe way to get a sample from the baby before birth, say in the last month of pregnancy, or only after birth? Where did Scuba go? Any other doctors on the board?

What does it require in terms of sample? The child is likely to be born in Nakom Phanom, but I don’t know the quality of MedLab facilities there, and would prefer the test to go via Bumungrad. But that may require me to fly with a baby’s blood sample to BKK, shortly after the birth.

3. Where are babies usually born in this country? This may sound like a silly question, but who is present. I assume mostly ‘home birth’, but can the (putative) father be present at birth? Is there sometimes/often a midwife present? What is the etiquette for birth and surrounding ceremonies?

4. Legal procedures regarding birth registration. I assume registration is required, probably at the Ampur (?). What is the required period for this birth registration. I would prefer to do the DNA test first, and if I am the proud father, have my name registered on the birth certificate.

5. Is there facility for dual citizenship between Thailand and the Netherlands? (I carry a Dutch passport)

6. What are the legal rules about child support in this situation. In this country, they’d pay the mother a single parent cost of living benefit, and levy me according to my income for part or all of the cost of it. I have no objections to supporting her to bring up the child, want a hand in it, too. But I’d like to know what the Thai law says about this. Also, I’d like to provide direct support to her, not to an agency, the government or her dad.

7. Are there any other useful websites/boards that I could use for discussion of this issue. I am happy to be a board member here, but maybe, with the focus on certain questionable practices on this board, it isn’t the ideal forum.

I think along the line, I’ll probably come with more questions.

Phoenix

[jingjoh]

The only thing I can comment on is the choice of hospital when the time comes, for gods sake dont let her go to a Thai hospital! I have heard horror stories, which were confirmed end of last year when a close Thai friend lost his baby, the doctor was incompetent, performed a C section when it wasnt needed, and used the forceps incorrectly strangling the baby. Then my friend found out 6 babies previously had died from the same shit, the doctors involved are being sued now.

If I had to have a birth here, I would go straight to Bumrumgrad, or Bangkok Nursing, maybe Bangkok Hospital, and bear the cost, if insurance had not been sorted.

[phoenix]

Thank you Jingjoh, that is useful feedback.Nok indicated that she intends to go ‘back home’ a few months before the baby is due, because life is cheaper (and quieter) there. But ‘home’ is a very basic house an a little hamlet about 40 minutes drive northwest of Nakom Phanom. No medical facilities closer that that, I think, fairly poor roads. I’ve been there. She probably anticipated having the child at home, assisted by Mama and sister. I don’t know the standard of the hospital in N.P., but have some doubts (anyone here know?).

Nok and I have been to Bumungrad, and I was very impressed. But it would mean convincing her to stay in BKK (or come back a few weeks before birth- another issue, travel, long distance from NP to BKK, flying in late pregnancy is not recommended, and it is a hell of a drive). If she stay in BKK, that probably means getting Mama and sister down there for a few weeks, too.

I am staring to slowly see some of the issues ahead. Stay tuned, this is going to be an interesting ride.

[lembeh]

Hmmm. Long post. Will try to answer some of the questions.

1. Most Thais are now born in local hospitals - standards are not good. For a "no problem" birth..well, no problems, but if any thing is not straight forward..well, not so good. Bumigrand is excellent, and expensive, but there are other good, cheaper hospitals in bk.

2. Registration of birth must take place within 15 days. They will need at minimum, signed photocopies of your passport (probably most of it).

3. Blood test is normally after birth. No risk to the baby that way..and what is an extra month or two. You will need to provide a sample, as well as your girlfriend.

4. If you want the birth to be in Bk, look at haveing family there for a couple of months at least..maybe 2 months before, and two to three afterwards..she will need the support if it is her first kid.

5. Your wifes reaction is a bit funny...looks like you don't have kids with her..she may have an ulterior motive..bring the kid over and you two raise it? She may go for that, very unlikely you g/f would though....

6. While your wife may be genuinely supportive, it is going to be very hard on your g/f. Even spending part time with her, she will be left with a young kid, on her own for large amounts of time (after the family go back)..not a good situation, and one liable to lots of stress...sure you wanna put her through that? Going back up country for her will solve some problems (famly support), but will raise lots more. You want you kid to be raised in a shack? YOu will need to come to grips with the fact that support will need to be more than "taking care of her financially"...

I think you will find it very, very hard to find a middle road here..but good luck..

(by the way, clearly your wife is going to realise that the "childless" state of your marriage is down to her...thats gonna hit her hard. After 19 years together, she will probably need as much support as nok)..

-j-

[phoenix]

Thank you Josh, for informative and sensitive response. Maybe this is the right forum to talk about these things. I have in the past tried to make my own contributions like that, and look at the human concerns in this strange environment, I feel heartened that others are doing the same.

 

>4. If you want the birth to be in Bk, look at having family there for a couple of months at least..maybe 2 months before, and two to three afterwards..she will need the support if it is her first kid.<

Nok is currently living with her (younger) brother and his wife and their baby (1 yr old), somewhere around Sukhumvit Soi 54, in a tiny one bedroom apartment. She is the eldest in her family, and pays the rent (3000 Bt). I understand her wish to be ‘home’ (Nk Pn) for the time before birth, but would prefer her to be in BKK (because of hospital quality) at birth. If that takes support for her family, maybe a bigger place, that’s OK with me. She talks about keeping the baby with her for six months, then giving it to Mama to look after, while she takes a job in Singapore, where she has a friend with a beauty salon. Hmmm, we’ll see. I prefer if the child stays permanently with her, and in Thailand. I am prepared to provide the financial support for her to get adequate housing and comfortable cost of living. Maybe she’ll be able to find work in her trade (beautician, which includes everything from hairdressing to skincare, make-up etc, she also has Wat Pu Massage training). A better apartment, and $$ support for living cost may make it attractive for her and her brother’s family to stay together in BKK, alternatively, she could consider using the support to get a place in Nk Pn town, where she does know a few people. I am a firm believer that babies should be at least for the first 2-3 years living with their mother, and am willing to do whatever that takes to achieve that.

>5. Your wifes reaction is a bit funny...looks like you don't have kids with her..she may have an ulterior motive..bring the kid over and you two raise it? She may go for that, very unlikely you g/f would though....<

The kid would be ‘bi-racial’, hopefully grow up in some form ‘bi-cultural’, but I have no doubt that it’s primary identity would be Thai. Nok in my country would be even more ‘fish out of water’ than I would be in LOS. I don’t want to separate the child from Nok, and I am certain that my wife wouldn’t want that either. So the solution is to be found in Thailand.

Nok lived in another Asian country for a while, working in the ‘textile industry’ , a sweatshop probably. She married the boss’ son, got pregnant, husband died in an accident etc etc. the upshot, her 5 yr old daughter is now being brought up by the grandparents, and she’s back in LOS, without certainty she’ll ever see her kid again. This may have been a key factor in her wish to get pregnant ( I have no doubt there was an element of deliberateness) No, she lost one, this one she’ll want to keep.

Both my wife and I have talked over the past year about spending a few years working and living in SE Asia, maybe Laos, maybe Cambodja or Thailand, in some form of NGO job or other (mind you, that is before she found out about my exploits over the past year. Still, it is imaginable.) We are both very committed to children having parents, and whenever possible, their real parents.

>6. While your wife may be genuinely supportive, it is going to be very hard on your g/f. Even spending part time with her, she will be left with a young kid, on her own for large amounts of time (after the family go back)..not a good situation, and one liable to lots of stress...sure you wanna put her through that?<

I see the situation as one that will need input from all involved to work out a best outcome. In the end, what does Nok want? But I want to expand her horizon of what is possible, and explore maybe options she hasn’t considered yet.

>Going back up country for her will solve some problems (family support), but will raise lots more. You want you kid to be raised in a shack?<

‘Home’ is a standard, be it rather large rural issaan house, but basic. I think she’d go up the wall will boredom (“when I do not work I think too much” , and feel constrained at being dominated by Mama. Yes , ‘home may not be the best. Maybe partnership in a business in her line, in Nk Pn, or some other viable mid size town is an option.

>YOu will need to come to grips with the fact that support will need to be more than "taking care of her financially"...<

Thank you Josh, I am rapidly coming to that conclusion myself. At present though, I am not ready or prepared to be with her full time, because of the consequences for the rest of my life, e.g. my marriage. But I am willing to put in time, energy and commitment to make the best of it. ( I started three days ago with an concerted effort to improve my Thai Language. If I am going to be in BKK for a while later on, my first ‘occupation” will be to enrol in a intensive crash course in Thai.

>I think you will find it very, very hard to find a middle road here..but good luck..

(by the way, clearly your wife is going to realise that the "childless" state of your marriage is down to her...thats gonna hit her hard. After 19 years together, she will probably need as much support as nok)..<

We are aware of the facts, and working on mutual support. It is really between the rock and the hard place, but I am determined to make the best of it, see it as an opportunity, rather than a threat. Thank you for your comment.

[think_too_mut]

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Lazaro ]

[phoenix]

Lazaro:

>Hope I am just paranoid.<

Shit, yes, I do hope you are just paranoid.

Unless Nok is a master (‘mistress’?) at very long term strategising, all the signs point in the opposite direction. I asked her to come with me to the beach, in July last year, after our first night together in BKK. When I met her in VOODOO, she never negotiated about money. I said ‘you wanna come with me tonight’, she said yes. During that entire week, I offered her presents, she never asked for anything, we never discussed money.

I left her some, ample, but it was never requested or solicited.

I have only four times spent a week or so with her, and emailed with her during a year. I may be naïve, but I do have a strong confidence that she is bona fide.

All the emails since her announcement of pregnancy have stated strongly that she doesn’t want anything from me if it would disrupt my marriage, no money, “don’t ever come back to me if it risks your marriage”. Hardly the tactic of someone who wants to scam me, I’d think. I could take her at face value, change my email address, and never contact her again. She may gamble I won’t do that, but that’s high stakes gamble.

Time will tell. The funny thing is, although I didn’t think on the scale of 40K Bt/Month, I’d be prepared to contribute that, if I had some say in the lifestyle and conditions of her and her child.

I would appreciate some of the other board members view on Lazaro’s scenario

[Guest]

. (While I was in LOS, she used a forensic evidence agency to analyse my hard disc. She emailed me the results of the analysis while I was still in LOS)

HI I won't comment on the relationship but I would like to comment on this for other guys on this site don't fall for this. It is quite possible for this to happen in fact there is seven layers of magnetic flux in a hard drive which such agencys as the CIA can get to the 7th layer but conventionaly only three can be accessed. There is a program called BCWipe check it out and what it does I use it but again I am married and paranoid.

There is no way of recovery from this utility if used at its highest level. Not even for yhe CIA. I hope that helps you guilty sanuk seekers.

PS I will be in BKK Sunday.

[Guest]

Hi phoenix,

Let me first congratulate you on becoming a father! Secondly, some thoughts of mine that I would like to share:

Whether she is cincere with you or taking you for a ride, the only one who can tell is yourself. I know, we 'dutch' have the strict justice feeling that anyone is innocent until proven otherwise, but your 'guts feeling' will tel you enough. But with her having your child, it's not an option to run away from it, even if she is not sincere with you. (With my ex-gf always looked for proof, never found any, until my co-boyfriend called me in the middle of the night because he had the same feeling)

Although very noble, the idea of being a parttime husband for both of your mia's does not look a good idea to me. You may have to choose between them.

Don't know about you, but i'm still a calvanistic dutchmen who finds the idea that the one I love is sleeping and having sex with someone else is horrible.

Maybe your wife will get these feelings when you're with NOK in LOS, maybe NOK will have these feelings when you're with your wife back home, maybe you will have these feelings when your wife or nok also have their part-time 'fulfillment' when you are with the other party. Anyway, getting these feelings means normally a lot of trouble and with 12 hours flying between you and the other side, you may get gray hairs and a heart attack only from this.

Third, I agree with you that moving a TG to Europe indefinitely is probably not working out. There will always be carving to go back from my experience. Know of a few girls in Europe who live there and just wait for the time that they have enough accumulated in the secret bank accounts in Thailand to leave their husband to go back home because the wheather and people are not up to standards for a Thai. (Even I choose to live in Thailand, so I cannot blame them for that!)

Then about supporting your baby and NOK in Thailand.

There is a distinct possibility that when you send 40k a month to her, the baby wil get 5k and the other 35k goes to anything you can imagine and cannot approve. And indeed, the whole family will have a jolly life and maybe you daugther will end up uneducated dancing in Vodoo in 18 years.

Of course you wil come to visit her and the can adjust something, but when you're gone NOK and your child will be under the constant influence of their Thai environment, where the possibility exists that they will make Nok some wiser and learn her how to bleed the bloody farang dry. I am not generalising here, for anyone offended: all thai ladies have a heart of gold, only the carate differs.

What I would do (and what i have done) is making a descicion for your life what you really want. You should have done that before you produced this offspring, but anyway, you have to think right now. This 50%/50% idea is probably more a nice Dutch habit to try to please everyone, including yourself, instead of a real genuine wish to spend 50% of your life with your wife and 50% with Nok and your child.

If you choose to stay in your country with your wife, you still have to support Nok and your child, but should leave many things to Nok and you can only try to influence her. In this case there is limited choice and you can only hope that she meets a nice other Thai/farang who will help her and be a good father for your child.

If you choose to abandon your wife, the price to pay may not be too high, both emotionally en finacially, certainly not when you planning to move to LOS.

(Beware: woman are definitely from a remote planet. I and everyone else thought I had a 'dead' relationship with my ex-wife but she turned out to be heart-broken after we split up, in fact: after I left for LOS!)

In that case you can be with her every day, help her with the raising of your child, help her to 'grow' above the level of a BG through education and support. You can build or buy a nice house together (get a lease on it to prevent yourself being scammed!) and really start a new life and be her partner in life.

I think everyone needs some kind of 'soulmate' in life, sure a young mother needs someone to support her during the raising of a child.

How much and which quality of support do you expect for NOK and your baby from her mother and sister back in Nakom Phanom, who probably lived of the allowance NOK send them monthly for playing falang in VooDoo?

Maybe a very different view on things, but anyway, it's my view.

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: think1stbkk ]

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: think1stbkk ]

[Guest]

[long post]

My daughter was born August 22 at Bumrungrad.

By the time TW and I discovered that she was pregnant (December), we had already been together in a more or less stable relationship for some 10 months. This was enabled at first by a job that was taking me to Asia every month; by a fortuitously timed 3-month sabbatical from said job, spent in Thailand; and for the past 11 months or so by a job in Bangkok such that I am there about 80% of the time.

Throughout much of this, I was unhappily married to someone else. That someone else had even been to Thailand and met and spent time with the TW. That someone else more or less knew what was going on but was in such deep denial that there was no need for me to "do the right thing" (ie, divorce), which due to financial concerns, the fact that it was my second marriage and now I'd be a two-time loser, etc, was kind of a scary propsect at the time.

Well, similarly to you perhaps, the notion of a child entering the picture snapped me to attention. I told my wife about it next time I got home (2 weeks after finding out). Divorce papers were filed 4 days later and we were divorced 90 days after that (April). The sense of relief -- as in, now I can pursue the best thing for my child, the TW I truly love, and myself -- simply cannot be described. I find it almost impossible to imagine that things could work out in any satisfying way with both ladies in the picture. Even if your wife can accept it, I think that carrying on with her and trying to pretend everything is hunky-dory and that you can carry on in a life together will ultimately prove stress-filled and problematic for *you*. Be sure you think this through -- try to imagine what it's going to be like facing her family and friends and yours, both for you and for her.

Also don't underestimate the pressures this will place on your TL (Thai lady). For me this was the worst aspect of things -- TW was constantly concerned that she was breaking up my family, that she was tearing me apart from my life in the USA, and so on. If your TL really is jai dee then I suspect it will be same-same.

Bottom line is that for me the only satisfying option is living with my TW and daughter as a family. Locale is unimportant but happens to currently be BKK. OK, enough about that.

I have never been in any hospital in her family's neck of the woods (coincidentally, Nakhon Phanom) but she didn't want to be there anyway so conditions there are irrelevent -- she was entertaining notions of a traditional birthing under the family house with the smoking pots, etc. The chances of me letting that happen were so remote that I reacted almost violently -- I wanted her to understand how serious I was about safety. Of course, my situation was different, in that decisions were made jointly, with me physically present, and few of the pressures you are facing in your situation. Nevertheless *don't let her give birth anywhere except a western-style facility*. You do NOT want to take chances with things like that in Thailand. You know how random things can be, how expats tend to talk about how "this is Thailand" and everything is backwards and twisted and you can't trust anything? Do everything in your power to make sure that she -- and your child -- avail themselves of a place like Bumrungrad.

TW had a C-Section. Total cost for the standard package they have for this (3 night stay in a private room) was about 45000 baht. Positively excellent care, though it tends to be a little "by the book" due to ISO9002 regs -- but in Thailand this is a VERY GOOD thing. Staff is completely used to all the stuff that can surround mixed babies in Thailand; even though it's a high-class and expensive place, there's plenty of poor dirt farmers floating around to see their new luuk krung grandchildren/nieces/nephews/cousins/etc.

As for documentation, 2 things happen.

1) Kid goes on her mother's family house papers. If the mother does not have her own house, the kid goes on her father's house papers. This is then registered at the home amphur along with the mother's ID card. We didn't think they would need anything from me but when TW's father got to the Amphur in Nakhon Phanom, they said they wanted a copy of my passport as well.

2) Hospital reports the birth to local authorities (whereever the hospital is) and a birth certificate is issued. Takes about 2 weeks (so ours is still pending, expected any day). They will provide a certified translation (for embassy or whatever) for an extra 1000 baht. My name and particulars are supposed to wind up on the birth certificate but as I have not actually seen it yet I can't verify.

I intend to claim American citizenship for my daughter. To ensure that there's as much evidence as possible, we decided on a DNA test. Bumrungrad wouldn't do it; I'm a bit fuzzy on why but I think it had more to do with some impartiality concerns rather than lack of capability. They sent us to Ramatipiti (after you've been there -- possibly the finest "Thai-style"/public hospital in Thailand -- you'll really appreciate a place like Bumrungrad). They took blood from all 3 of us. Results are said to take 2 weeks, ours is pending (no concerns for me here, BTW). Cost = 13500 baht (!) and they'll disrespect your your young Isaan TL for no additional charge. There's an option to get the report in English for a few extra baht.

Good luck.