Etiquette on Mia Lua/mia Noi relations- advice needed

[think_too_mut]

I might have been paranoid in my previous post but look now how naive I may sound with this one.

My current BGF is from Voodoo bar but not an Isaan girl. She's a nice and intelligent person (HSC, former office girl), great body but not really very beautiful, admitted that half the time she struggles to make 7-ofs.

When it came to family/children during our first night she was surprised I had no kids.

"No have - why?". I explained that my wife can't stay pregnant.

Months later and after several visits to BKK and her, she said she could help with it, just "tell me when". She is 25, I'm 42.

My new line was:

She can come to Oz, we'll enroll her in English school, she can live with us for as long as she please, no sex will be had with her.

My wife actually asked (told her I had met someone in BKK)for the BG to come over and try to help us.

Some stipendy, say, 10-15k Baht (with some token duties in the house) a month and all expenses covered, going back to BKK whenever I go.

Any other school she may want/qualify for will be provided for her. My wife is an english teacher, I am a top-gun in computers.

In return, she would be asked to donate her eggs to us so we can have a baby.

Basically, that donation solves ours and all of her problems: regular monthly income, school support, gaining skills that, combined with much better English, will serve her for the rest of her life.

In short, I get what I need, she gets what she needs and, as a bonus, I would have that feeling of being a knight in a shiny armour who got her out of the bar. Additional security for me - she can't milk me afterwards, can't destoy my marriage, nothing.

She loved the idea and she may be coming over to Oz in 2 months if other things (immigration, health check..) are fine.

She admitted, that predictabble support in money (15k Baht goes to 25K at least if she has everything payed) pushed her to make the decission. She will send her mom a bank card with 5k Baht ready for withdrawal each month.

And I'll be feeding the card from then on...

In short, I think that BG's trust in us and my wife's support was essential, my commitment to treat the girl as a daughter, predictable money for, freedom to leave whenever she wants was the key here.

Hope she gets all negatives in her tests.

[Guest]

Lazaro,

Almost LMAO: "I explained that my wife can't stay pregnant".

Good, would be a very special lady if she could!

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by phoenix:

Time will tell. The funny thing is, although I didn’t think on the scale of 40K Bt/Month, I’d be prepared to contribute that, if I had some say in the lifestyle and conditions of her and her child.

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The way you worded that is telling. This is acceptable within our western thought and value framework, where a "support" role is part of a kind of moral contract allowing you to influence the life of your child.

Cruelly for you in this situation, she doesn't think within a western framework. In her value system there is no such moral contract. Money you send is not going to get you any kind of real say in the life of your child (or of Nok)...

[edited to fix glaring spelling mistake]

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: TEDBKK ]

[Guest]

Interesting.... All I want to say is a friend of mine had fathered a child here and he too couldn't get a DNA test. He said that he feels that the hospital could've arranged it but, maybe they felt that if it was found that he wasn't the father, maybe he wouldn't have paid for the birth. I wonder how that would work in Oz? I've met many single mothers that claim child support from men. One girl was drawing cash from two guys and on the government pension. She never had any money as she usually did the fortnightly shopping and spent the rest on weed or gave it to two dollar shops. I think in Oz if a woman says you are father, then you are. Time to buy condoms with spermicide to sedate the little buggers. (As of yet I am not a father. Eventually my time will come I 'spose.) null

[Guest]

"My wife started piecing together my illicit life in June, and recovered a (deleted) file from my computer that contained a month’s email correspondence with Nok, as well as some of my posts on the old board. (While I was in LOS, she used a forensic evidence agency to analyse my hard disc. She emailed me the results of the analysis while I was still in LOS) "

This does not sound like the actions of a laid back lady, more like someone who plans and executes actions decisively.

I truly hope that you have judged correctly the intended actions of both ladies. In spite of what they both say.

Do you believe your wife will stay with you without the emotional investment on your behalf? Is the Thai girl simply being very nice under the circumstances?

Good luck, but I think you will have to make a choice sooner or later.

[Guest]

Phoenix -

You have already received some good advice here so I'll try to keep this short as possible (although there is much to say).

First, get some professional help from a therapist who can help you put things into perspective. My feeling is that he or she will tell you to make a decision on the longterm viability of your primary relationship and act on it, before you make too many decisions on your new relationship.

The fact is that you are getting something from a thai bargirl that you have not been getting from your wife. These things are often illusion and are certainly transitory. You are making HUGE decisions here that will affect you and others for the rest of your lives.

Deal with wifey first. Regardless of her seeming openness to the idea of your child by this Thai lady, there will be issues coming up down the road. Absolutely. Ask yourself why you are with your girlfriend. If its because you don't love your wife back home, get out of that relationship.

Whatever decisions you come to regarding your new relationship, you can make them easier and better when your relationship with your wife is decided. Do not let your wife's attitude - or perhaps perceived attitude - impact your decision. It boils down to whether you love her or not. If so, support the child and go back to your wife to see if it works. If you don't love your wife, we both know what you need to do. Your wife has been your wife and deserves to be treated with respect, even if your ultimate decision is to say goodbye. Your Thai girl will wait on longterm issues as long as she knows you will provide support, which you have been clear about.

Sorry. Just my two satang. Good luck. Chicago Dave (longer than I thought it would be...sorry.)

[phoenix]

Thanks to all who responded. I seem to be getting a strong message that in the end, I will have to choose, and that that choice would first be about my current marriage, and depending on the outcome of that choice, decide on my involvement with Nok &child.

I am struggling with that, I don’t really want to choose, I don’t want an either/or.

All my reason says I may have to, but I don’t want to! I think it comes down to refusing to accept a reality where I have to abandon either my ML or the child. Both are too important to me to abandon.

So maybe I’ll have to bide my time, wait for DNA test before going any further.

Think1stBKK:

> Whether she is sincere with you or taking you for a ride, the only one who can tell is yourself.<

Yes, in spite of paranoia about scams, I am going by my gut feeling, and that is that she is honest. I have met scamming, calculating and manipulative ones as well, and I know this one is straight.

> This 50%/50% idea is probably more a nice Dutch habit to try to please everyone, including yourself, instead of a real genuine wish to spend 50% of your life with your wife and 50% with Nok and your child. <

I thought long and hard about that statement. There is some truth in it, I like to please everyone here. But there is also some genuine motivation to stay with each of the two women, for sometimes different reasons. Each give me a lot, but different things, kind of complementary to each other. I don’t really want to loose either, couldn’t stand the idea of not having my ML as part of my life, but neither can I imagine my child and his/her mother being out of my life. Incorporating both is going to be very difficult, but until I have tried I am reluctant to give up.

TedBKK:

Congratulations with the birth of your child. I hope things will go well for you.

And thanks for the practical info about that experience, strengthens my belief that we must try and do ‘it’ in BKK at a good hospital, in this case cost is irrelevant compared to the importance of a safe birth.

> I think that carrying on with her and trying to pretend everything is hunky-dory and that you can carry on in a life together will ultimately prove stress-filled and problematic for *you*. Be sure you think this through -- try to imagine what it's going to be like facing her family and friends and yours, both for you and for her.<

Ouch! I have been thinking about it, and it makes me want to run a mile. But rather than agonising about the thought of telling family and friends, if it comes to it, we’ll just have to do it. No point in agonising too much before the outcome of that DNA test is known.

>Also don't underestimate the pressures this will place on your TL (Thai lady). For me this was the worst aspect of things -- TW was constantly concerned that she was breaking up my family, that she was tearing me apart from my life in the USA, and so on. If your TL really is jai dee then I suspect it will be same-same.<

That is in fact what seems to be the case here. My relation with my ML was very shaky already a few months ago, and the outcome uncertain even before I heard about Nok’s pregnancy. But Nok has consistently, since months ago, been telling me that if there is any chance of “fixing” my marriage, I should do that, even if it means no more contact with her. She is still saying that now, in spite of the pregnancy. And I think she means it.

Chicago Dave:

>First, get some professional help from a therapist who can help you put things into perspective. My feeling is that he or she will tell you to make a decision on the longterm viability of your primary relationship and act on it, before you make too many decisions on your new relationship. <

Thank you, CD, that is exactly what I did, and what he told me. But that first decision is hard to make, and will need more time and work on it. Fortunately, we’re still 6 month from the birth.

>You are making HUGE decisions here that will affect you and others for the rest of your lives. <

Tell me! I am painfully aware of that. I appreciate the rest of your post, you make sense, and I agree with most of what you say.

However, in the end, I don’t want to go in public into too much more detail about emotional aspects of my relation with those close to me, I don’t think this is the place. So forgive me if I don’t respond further to the your comments.

I sincerely thank all of you for the effort you have made to respond, and doing so seriously rather than make a joke of it all. This certainly is an amazing board, thank you Khun Sanuk!

Anyone else with practical experiences relating to my original questions, please keep writing. I especially would like to know about the possibility of dual citizenship.

[Guest]

Phoenix

As a fellow countryman, I could give you the following hints:

“ Legal procedures regarding birth registration. I assume registration is required, probably at the Ampur (?). What is the required period for this birth registration. I would prefer to do the DNA test first, and if I am the proud father, have my name registered on the birth certificate. “

I would absolute recommend to let your G/F deliver the baby in the hospital. In my case, the hospital staff (Ramkhamphaeng Hospital in BKK) noted down all the particulars, just before the actual delivery. Think about this, as this could mean that you’re be named as father on the birth certificate, before doing the DNA test.

I do not know about the possibility of doing DNA tests, prior to delivers the baby. A visit to a hospital would clear more light on this.

"Is there facility for dual citizenship between Thailand and the Netherlands?"

Both my kids, are registered as “Thai Nationals” by the local amphur . However, as I’m Dutch, I did claim the Dutch Nationality for them and both are carrying Dutch Passports.

I understand that the Netherlands, does not allow dual citizenship (Thai / Dutch).

 

Hope this help a bit.

[phoenix]

Thank you Dundee,

I thought I might have a hard job convincing her to stay in BKK for birth, but before I could suggest it, she has already emailed me, and said she changed her mind, will stay in BKK to have the baby. ("At home I have too many relatives, hassling me, BKK is quieter") Bumungrad was indeed prompt in returning the info I asked them re paternity testing, as someone in an earlier post here said. The only snag is that they want the birth certificate!

>".....Forensic Medicine, and you would need to bring your, your wife’s and your child’s

passport. Dr Visutr also needs to see your child’s birth certificate. The

names of the child’s parents, as shown in the birth certificate, must be the

same as those in the parent’s passport. If they do not match then you would

need documents showing a name change has been made. "

That is hard, since I am not too keen to put my name on it before the test.

Well, we'll see in due course.

[phoenix]

Coming to Bkk this week, to arrange for an untrasound, whuich one way or other should give me more clarity whetehr I'm gonna be dad or not. Watch this space.

May see some of you at Woodstock on Friday.