pattaya127 Posted November 29, 2001 Report Share Posted November 29, 2001 quote: Originally posted by TEDBKK: Hmmm. When I read cardinalblue's remarks, I thought he was getting at something different. Let me put my own spin on it for a sec. Look around you in Bangkok and elsewhere in Thailand. Examine the trappings of modern life, and the major infrastructure. The machinery, the computers, the highways, the transportation system, etc. How much of it was conceived, designed, and built by Thais for themselves? Now go to a western city and do the same. [Yes, it is true that for example a lot of high-tech machinery and so on in the west is from Japan. But in many cases there is also a western maker of the same thing and in any case the importation is done on a much more coequal basis than in Thailand.] The point is that the "western work ethic" or whatever you want to call it, when taken as a whole aspires to a level of energy and commitment that drives its own societies and the world forward. Mai ben rai, on the other hand, aspires to eat noodles when you feel hungry. The same industrialization and striving forward or competitiveness, brought 2 world wars, arms races that are now going into the bio-chemical domain, too, the other side of the medal . me, i am proud of being a westerner, but what if some fool kills a few millions of us with chemicals perfected by our forward ethic. If we are so forward, how come we were shaken to the economic ground by a few barbarians 2 months ago. My point is that, though we may seem more... and others less..., we are all complementary to the others. It is important that every country has its different idiosyncracies, and manners to go about life and work. I am just against bashing the thais for being this and that, especially when most on this board can't wait to go to their country asap. Both cultures are marks of a civilization, and to say that thais work only because they have to, just reduces them to a simplistic key-hole view. About the trappings, you say how much was invented by thais. WEll, i say, how much was really wanted by thais? I don't mean in the last 20 years, but at the end of WW2, when Thailand's governement started to favorize capital and industry, and slowly reducing the importance of agriculture, despite the fact that until the mid-1990s, 60% of thais were still living in rural conditions. The thais, except the elite, very simply had no choice in the direction the country was taken, and though, now greed is well part of the behaviour, the lack of western work ethic only highlights that this type of ethic does not quite totally fit their character and outlook on life, for most of them at least and that this comes from cultural traits worth investigating rather than reducing it to thais are this or that . I do not disagree with you guys, i just find extremely interesting not to see people as forward or backwards, and understand what in their social habits is innate and what is new and disruptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted November 29, 2001 Report Share Posted November 29, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Wagner Svinja: You can also find easily the opposite kind of people. There probably are major cultural differences within Europe, too. Back home we have the concept of the "Lutheran work ethic"; I suspect that people in the (Catholic) countries in Southern Europe are more oriented towards sanuk than the tight-assed Northerners. There appears to have been also a major shift between the generations. My grandfathers would have found not working inconceivable, while now you can indeed easily find people in their twenties who are happy to pocket the subsistence income given by the welfare state and just spend their time hanging out. Another spin on the topic are many African cultures. When Westerners look at them they are horrified that the women do also all the back-breaking physical labor, while the guys only hang out. Conversely, the African guys think the Westerners are total idiots when they actually seem to want to work. Now, how many of you and your acquaintances would bear to live off his wife/girlfriend and spend his time sanuking lavishly? I think we have special words for those guys, such as "pimp", "gigolo", etc. Is that your dream role? Maybe there is something in this Western work ethic thing, after all. Btw. does Thai have a word that is really equivalent to "pimp"? Wagner I only criticize the superficial view on thais. Why wouldn't they feel a job done is also plenty a reward for them? The reason why some retirees collapse from not working is because work was all their life, and i don't find it particularly ethical in itself or worth duplicating. I did not understand your allusion to living off G/Fs, unless you implied that Thailand is a nation of pimps or lazy bums. Which i was afraid this whole discussion was all about. BTW, not sure if you are germanic, but everytime i hear the word pimp, i think of these horrible guys in W. Herzog's movies, not africans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jingjoh Posted November 29, 2001 Report Share Posted November 29, 2001 Did anyone think about just how much the UPS driver is making? even at base rate 6 days a week the guys are making 20+ a month.. One would expect them to be visually hard workers for this kind of money, or are they all University graduates UPSer??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 29, 2001 Report Share Posted November 29, 2001 quote: Originally posted by pattaya127: I only criticize the superficial view on thais. Why wouldn't they feel a job done is also plenty a reward for them? I jumped into the discussion when you appeared to claim that the "Western work ethic" did not exist. On that topic I have far more cultural background, whereas I have little idea what Thais are or are not. I hope to learn something from people who have been dealing with them far more than I ever will. quote: Originally posted by pattaya127: Why wouldn't they feel a job done is also plenty a reward for them? Well, do Thais behave like that? I keep hearing that "sanuk" is more important for them than getting results, whereas in the West there are plenty of people who rather do activities classifiable as "work" instead of "sanuk" - even on their free time. I also remember one guy's story about the level of effort the hotel staff put into getting his airconditioning unit fixed: "let's knock it a few times, and maybe it will be better"... quote: Originally posted by pattaya127: The reason why some retirees collapse from not working is because work was all their life, and i don't find it particularly ethical in itself or worth duplicating. I never claimed that the "Western work ethic" was a good thing, since it always isn't. I tried to illustrate that it must exist. People who think "WORK = LIFE" is a good example of Western logical thinking: - Western work ethic says work is good - more of a good thing is better ERGO: Making work all of your life is good. As you point out that is not really smart, but how it can happen unless there is an intrinsic belief in the goodness of working? These WORK = LIFE people often never get around enjoying these (material) benefits you claimed were the real motivation. quote: Originally posted by pattaya127: I did not understand your allusion to living off G/Fs, unless you implied that Thailand is a nation of pimps or lazy bums. I was trying to initiate some introspection so that the (Western) readers would realise that they actually have a bit of the "Western work ethic" embedded in their minds. If work as such is not important, why would you prefer to work, when you can get everything you need and have fun without it? You can claim the reason is peer pressure - you don't have the respect of your peers, unless you are able to support yourself with your own efforts and skills. That is why the terms "pimp" and "gigolo" have such negative connotations. However, this peer pressure exists only because your peers share the same delusion that work is good. As I tried to point out, in many countries in Africa your male peers would respect you as a man who has it really made, if you are able to have your women do all the work needed to support everybody in the family. I could speculate that Thailand works, because the culture traditionally works in terms of large extended families in which everybody has the same "sanuk" attitude. As a result, the necessary work (starving really gets in the way of sanuk...) gets spread around and nobody gets encumbered too much, because all are playing by the same rules so things tend to balance out. However, things can get nasty when you have a Western style two-person family unit where there is no room to spread the responsibilites around. Witness the busy BG and 'no-good' boyfriend case. There was a reason that I was asking if Thai language has a word for "pimp" (with similar negative connotations as in English). If there isn't, Thailand definitely cannot be a nation of pimps, even if we interpret their behaviour in those terms. Wagner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 29, 2001 Report Share Posted November 29, 2001 jingjoh-- I do not know the educational background of all our local delivery employees, but I do know that UPS Thailand does NOT require a Univeristy Degree (they do however require that a full slate of basic school be completed K-12 or it's local equal). Some of our staff do indeed have degrees from Bangkok Universities or some military or other government college. I suspect that the wages we pay, in addition to the fact that we provide full coverage medical for employee + family dependents means that we are picking from the higher levels of the local thai labor pool. I've never seen so many happy people showing up to work at 7:00am just to carry around heavy boxes in the heat and humidity! --UPSer PS: So bringing this back to the original thread. Speaking for our local Thai staff... No, the are NOT lazy at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 Every time I send a letter/package to my gf in nakhon sawan she never gets it because address is wrong or I don`t know what. F*cking S*it!!!!! LP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 ling_phoom-- Thailand is one of those countries that have a particularly difficult postal address system.. If you don't get ALL of the address you may not be able to locate it.. In my travels I have found that the private couriers USUALLY get it there, since they have a vested financial interest in making a successful delivery. No delivery no payment. However, the state (public) postal system is a little different, there is no vested interest other then "that's what is supposed to happen" and "that's your job to find the address and deliver"... IMHO! --UPSer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 quote: Originally posted by land o' scams: Thais are mentally retarded. In short I'd have to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Wagner Svinja: ...Btw. does Thai have a word that is really equivalent to "pimp"? Wagner Pimp - MAENG DA ( แมงดา ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 I don't think that western ethic U talked about has quite reached me,neither many of my acquaintances.I'm very receptive though to the things money can buy,so gotta look for it. Frankly I see very few jobs I'd feel proud to do(I'm meditteranean though...and son of an artist,not quite a model of hardwork) BTW Pattaya where I've seen the attitude of "I need to work to buy a car a house etc..." at his worst was in Singapore.Add to that that the locals are due to spend their whole life on such a small isalnd,I find the place pretty depressing(But I like it for a short stay) Keep up the deep posts guys I feel less stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.