The Anti-American Issue

[Julian2]

Wait, I just had a thought, since America is really a nation of immigrants, and since the only real Americans are the Native Americans, the "Indians" wouldn't that make the anti Americans Bigots and racists? And since many of the early settlers in America were the rejects from Europe, doesn't that also make anti American types really Anti-European? Hence, as it would stand, Americans are now then innocent, as if it hadn't been for all the Europeans invading the peace loving Indian land, non of this would have happened. Ah logic, it never fails...er except with Thai girls/women in general, then all bets are off.

Sorry OH, I meant the Indians from India in my post.

Your logic is impeccable though. As liberals we take wishy washy to new heights.

[Steve]

Interesting thread. I made a post some time ago that we (America) is envied, liked, feared, admired, loved, etc. by the rest of the world encompassing most if not all of the former to different degrees depending on the individual or country. France, seemingly the most 'anti-America' of the major European countries, elected a guy who is an America-phile.

All those people protesting and buring U.S. flags in the U.S. would give their left testicle for a visa to the U.S. And I would even be so bold as to say that given the option to a visa to the U.S. as well as any number of other western countries, we'd still be the #1 choice. One could argue that its for economic reasons but I would argue that in addition to that it is because they have heard that this is one of the rare places on earth that one can come penniless and be as wealthy as you want to be no matter what you look like. Even if you're arab or whatever. We have a reputation for justice and fairness that despite what they have heard or seen in their countries, they come here expecting it. Strange dichotomy but it is so. While we may not have the 'streets paved with gold' reputation that european immigrants heard of in the 1800s, the rest of the world has emails and letters written from fellow countrymen that talk about us. Many are even relying on the monies sent home from family in the states. Many of those wanting to come here aren't all from 3rd world areas. Tons..er...ah..tonnes :smirk: of expat Brits here and have been here for ages. You don't see Americans going to the UK or Europe in anything close to the same numbers or percentages.

America is still one of the top tourist destinations of millions of people. They aren't lining up to visit Russia, China and also given a choice, would choose America over England, France or Japan.

In terms of involvement in global affairs, it seems America acts too quickly and ill advisedly a lot while Europe acts too slowly. The experience of WW2 has numbed Europe and made it 'gun shy' to the point of detriment and while the U.S. felt emboldened by the war to be involved like its never been before, especially in the early days when Europe was in too much of a wreck to do anything about it militarily or mentally.

I believe UK and European people don't really want us to be isolationist. I think they want us to be involved on their terms. Understandable, to some extent. We (America) need to strike a better partnership though.

I can also understand the imposition of American 'culture' but its an acceptance not an imposition. Its accepted openly and of free will. These countries gladly accept our movies, McDonalds and music. Its not a great surprise. Its like that of any nation that ruled its era. The Roman exported their culture but a lot of it was accepted willingly. Football (soccer) spread accross the globe at a time when England was a world power with the world's largest navy. It couldn't have spread otherwise.

My take is that the left (as some like to call them) here in the states yearn for an America that lives up to its constitution and bill of rights and I think it can never live up to it to the extent they want. No nation or person can. I think those on the far right, have too much of an idealistic view of the country and are blind to some of the faults or more forgiving of it because of our status and perceived greatness. Americans are proud of their nation and some of us proud to the point of arrogance.

I've oft repeated this and I will say so once again. We're not as bad as the world makes us out to be and we're not as great as we think we are. We are judged against a standard that is sometimes unfair I think. We're judged against nations without the same military, economic or political power. Switzerland can point its finger at us but give it the same power and they'll be as 'bad' at the best and I would hate to think how much worse it probably would be.

America should be judged against those that held similar power. You should be judged against your own and if that is done I think we'll be seen as a great nation. Possibly the greatest if not then a close second (Maybe the old English empire was greater given its era, I have to give England credit for ending slavery, instituting social reforms, etc.). And even greater when judged alongside the USSR who it shared power with for decades.

It would be nice if no country had all that power, but its wishful thinking. It is the nature of man and given that we have acted far better than our predecessors and our contempories (USSR, now China).

I also think there is a certain amount of condescension abou the U.S. in Europe and the UK. We're a baby in terms of our age as a nation. Seemingly uncouth and uncultured much of the time to our western allies. They show a certain arrogance regarding us that we are accused of in global affairs. Its hypocritical but understandable given their long history.

We are told we are unfair but some of these same nations hold seats on a UN security council that is unjust and fair in its make up because they (like us) does not want to relinquish power and also think they know best than some 3rd world upstart. What America can be blamed for is making similar mistakes that the European powers did.

 

Anyway, I'm getting to the point I feel I'm rambling. I think I've made the point I was trying to make and I had a long weekend so I can't put together a cogent thought process right. Where's my coffee?!

 

 

[chuck6660]

Hi OH, I think you misinterpreted my comment about aid.

 

I'm not saying that the US chould give more aid, what I'm getting at is the fact that aid is pretty ineffective. What would be more helpful is fair trade and debt forgiveness.

 

 

Fidel,

 

What exactly is "fair trade"?

 

Debt forgiveness is great if your the debtor, not so great if your the debt provider. Perhaps we should do away with money (the root of all evil)....go back to living off the land and bartering for essentials. Even better would be to re-invent mankind.

 

[Fidel]

"Fair Trade" is trade that is fair.

 

Fair:

Having or exhibiting a disposition that is free of favoritism or bias; impartial: a fair mediator.

b. Just to all parties; equitable: a compromise that is fair to both factions.

 

Trade:

The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce.

 

I sense that you have a limited understanding of the way in which the international lending institutions (World Bank etc) function, so there wouldn't be much point in going into it here.

[khun_khon_neua]

<< I don't know about extra payments to police on Sukhumvit, but I do know they are not done in non-tourist areas. >>

 

In my old neighbourhood (Sriyan - definitely not a tourist area), a restaurant owner told me the vendors had to pay the police 10,000 baht a year.

I heard the same from a somtam woman who sold in a soi since she couldn't afford to pay.

 

A few quotes ...

 

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1 August 2001

 

BMA started to enforce the BMA regulation regarding the collection of fees for cleaning footpaths used by street vendors. Officers from the Department of Sanitation and Environment of each District were assigned to collect the cleaning fee. Every 15 days, the fee is collected for 150 baht per one square meter per month with a receipt given to vendor. (Daily News Online, 2001)

 

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Chulalongkorn Hospital area:

 

3.2.2 Information on money extortion by the officers

 

The street vendors told us that they had been affected by the extortion of money by the municipal officers, even before the BMA had launched the attempts to register the vendors. According to them, before the registration of vendors, the extortion rates were as follows;

 

1)Small cart: 30 baht/week

 

2)Big cart: 50 baht/week

 

3)Food stall with two seats: 100 baht/week

 

4)Food stall with five seats: 200 baht/week

 

5)Food stall with ten seats: 300 baht/week

 

After the BMA launched the campaign to regulate and register the vendors, as well as declare the permitted areas for street vending, the street vendors lodged their complaints to ITV and the ITV crew came to record the event secretly. The video tape showed that each vendor for morning round was extorted for 100-300 baht, and 20 baht for those selling in the afternoon.

 

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Street vendor study

 

Full name of the study is:

"The Case of Stall Sellers and Street Vendors in front of Chulalongkorn Hospital"

 

This may true for vendors in front of large public buildings. I was refering to vendors on the hundreds [thousands?] of streets in Bangkok lined with shophouses where the owner charges to setup in front.

My statement is based on actual experience of receiving money from a vendor, not hearsay or some academic case study.