Embarressed by hookers.

[sinsin2]

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Siem Reap - Hooker problems

I was in Siem Reap two weeks ago and seemingly caused some hard feelings when I took a hooker to dinner and then to my hotel. I had seen someone bring a woman into the Continental bar/restaurant the previous night and when my driver (Lucky) talked me into a woman I said that I also wanted to take her to dinner to make sure I wanted to spend the night with her. He suggested that he and I go to dinner and then pick her up and I said I wanted to take her to dinner. We picked her up we went to a nice restaurant and he declined to eat with us. She was uncomfortable in the restaurant and I was sorry I had brought her. And when I took her into the hotel the woman in charge put her head down on her desk and pounded her fist on it. The hooker was not worth the $25, the hotel lady was very cold after that and my driver was never as friendly. He was sometimes surly.

How uncouth was I?

Zen,

I don't believe you did anything wrong. Language and cultural differences can cause misunderstandings. People often get upset or surly if they do not understand what is going on or are having to do something unfamilar.

If a driver, lady, or hotel staff acts surly, then change. There are a great many Cambodians and businesses who will gladly provide excellent service with a smile for a small amount of compensation.

Perhaps you can share the hotel name with us so that future travelers will not experience the same problems.

Shotover

What did you do wrong? Just about everything from the sound of it, culturally speaking. I may risk being flamed, and I don't know where you come from, the west, east or whereever, but my advise is to understand the culture of Cambodia and SE Asia before you venture into these situations. I'll assume you are from the west, by your name. While you probalby meant well by your kind actions, and in some countries your kindness may be appreciated, in Cambodia (SEAsia) there is a stratification of classes and you severely misstepped.

In the US and Europe, egalitarianism is a virtue. Here it is not. Here people live for face, which may be defined as respect of others, honor, or something more obscure. When locals see you eating with a prostitute or taxi driver, YOU lose face in their eyes - and probably in the eyes of the taxi driver and prostitute as well. Taking an obvious bar girl to a nice restaurant seems kind enough, but again, to others, YOU lose face. Not only you, but your guests, as well, may become uncomfortable. There are 1,000 things happening during these situations to which you, as a westerner, are oblivious to.

Normally, you won't observe the body language, eye contacts, language changes (lower level dialects and rude comments being made in their mother tongue) taking place around you, although you may notice everyone stops eating and focuses on you. Don't think this is because you are seen as cool, you aren't. You just lost big face and you don't know it, and you have probably revulsed most of the people around you. Ah, who cares? It's only a vacation, I'm gone tomorrow. If this is your attitude, then expect the service levels and kindness you receive in SE Asia to reflect this attitude.

You see, in SE Asia, when you associate with persons at this level or on this basis with people who are stratified at a much lower level on the economic and social chains from you or the locals, several indicators are sent to those observing...first and foremost is that YOU are of the same low class...in the case of bar girls, there probably isn't much lower, drivers are not farther above, and cyclo drivers might even be above moto dops. But you also subject the girl to humiliation...the observers consider her lack of directing you to a more appropriate venue...a noodle stand where she usually eats...as a fault on her part, "how dare she consider herself of our class and eat, play, drink at our place?" may be how they would put it. I have seen people get up and leave restaurants when someone walks in with a prostitute or moto driver.

It took several years and several mistakes and a lot of language lessons and talks with locals to learn how this operates. Westerners either don't see it, don't want to see it, or think they can just thumb up their noses at it. Culture won't be changed by these egalitarian actions, YOU will only lose face, as will the girls, moto dops, taxi drivers, street workers, or whomever you subject to this.

Next time, order room service, give the driver $1 to go eat noodles with his friends, and stay in a place that you've checked out in advance where bringing girls in is not a problem. YOU will still lose face, but it won't be so obvious, and the girl will probably be much more comfortable with you and give you much better service.

come to think of it, have you ever picked up a prostitute in your home country, or a taxi driver or homeless person and taken them out to dinner, a movie, or social event? Probably not. But many think it is quite fine to do so in SE Asia. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Ken

FWIW in Phnom Penh I go out to restaurants with hookers, drivers and/or both all them time - I've never had a problem. I've eaten at nice restaurants like Pon Lok, at Soup Places, and little neighborhood joints. I always ask the girl where she wants to go and respect her wishes, but a lot of times it's "up to you" --- some of the girls will say Martini, presumably because it's all hookers there, so we blend -- but lots of other girls like to go to a nice restaurant -- I've had girls at svay pak stop me and ask me to take them out to that restaurant again like last time -- I use the same moto driver most of the time and he eats with me often as he does with other clients --- so for me there is no issue ---- I've never gotten attitude from anyone for it, but if some local or tourist at the restaurant had a problem with it, #### 'em --- if I wanted to worry about that kind of thing, I'd stay home -- I travel half way around the world to have a good time on MY vacation -- I try to get along with everyone and be polite, etc, but as long as I'm not hurting anyone and we're all having a good time, I really don't care what the guy at the next table thinks. -- zen- as far as the people at your hotel, if they give you attitude, switch hotels --- most hotel staff in Cambodia are really friendly and helpful, so there's no reason to stay someplace where they're surly -- same with your driver.

That's got to be the definitive piece of writing on how barangs taking hookers out to dinner will be viewed by the locals. Uncomfortable truths for many who want to retain their illusions but you nailed it. I mean, who'd take a prostitute out on the town at home? Why should SEA be any different in that respect? Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

I don't expect guys to stop taking the girls out, I know I have great fun doing exactly this and whilst I try to be discrete, I do bear in mind that me and my date stand out a mile to all around and it's quite obvious to all what she does for a living! You just rammed that reality home with a vengeance. It's OK for those on a short vacation, but I know I wouldn't do it if I lived there.

I'm as guilty as anyone of blotting out this unpalatable realisation that people are staring but who do I think I'm kidding. On vacation I try to strike a balance between not making too much of a spectacle of myself and yet still having a whole lot of fun.

Once again, very well put and right on the mark! It's been said before but rarely so succinctly. I hope others will see the truth here and recognise that your post is the obviously the result of long experience of SEAsian culture, but on the other hand you may want to ignore it unless it impinges upon your sanuk!

It's not a popular thing to highlight and I think many people will be pissed off at the bearer of such bad news. Hell, I don't like to think about it when I'm on vacation but if just a little more discretion on the part of sanukers can avoid an ugly scene then your post will have done a lot of good.

As for kindness...

I'm not advocating that we western travelers stop being kind to the people in SE Asia, tipping carelessly and too much to waitresses and hotel staff who make less in a month that you spend on an escort for an evening, giving money to beggars who've lost their minds, arms, legs, and families, or setting up a girl with a great meal at a 5 star restaurant. Just don't be surprised if your actions are looked upon with distain from locals. Locals recognize the position of the less fortunate as deserving...it was something they did in a past life that they must pay for now. It's an odd thought process and belief system to westerners, but for many reasons, it exists and is a reality here. And like I said, most tourists are completely unaware of what is happening, so it doesn't surprise me that you "didn't have any problems," as you wouldn't recognize it or even be aware of it, it is happening without your even noticing it.

Your attitude is the prevalent one for many tourists and the one that leads politicians like Taksin Shinawatra and Thai people in general to move with posthaste to close down the entertainment areas of Thailand catering to foreigners...the Thai places will remain unscathed. Hun Sen and the Cambodia men will come to the same conclusion when they see "cultured" Khmer citizens frequently strolling hand in hand along the riverside walk (like they do on Beach Road or Sukhumvit) with older foreign men or when someone brings a Vietcong or Cambodian Martini's girl to one of their favorite restaurants across the Japanese bridge in full view of the wife and kids.

Please keep up the "it's my experience and #### you if the locals don't like it" attitude as it will help move the process along much more quickly. We often forget that we are guests in a foreign country, even if we don't behave like guests. More recently, the Thais have become sickened with the situation and this attitude and are now changing the tourism experience in their country.

Ken

 

Ken,

I'm glad that someone brings up this fact. SEA is a lot different from the western world. I, myself, made the mistake too being a tourist in the early eighties in Thailand, even though I always wanted the girls to feel good I didn't have enough knowledge about the way of life in SEA. Later I married a Thai girl , and slowly began to see things from the Thai point of view.

As I've been through the several stages I'll be the last one to blame others for making 'cultural mistakes' but indeed it's a real fact that we should all be aware of. SEA seems very tolerant, and in a way it really is, but if we don't be careful then one day we might not be that welcome again. This day still seems far away, the money coming out of the tourist industry being an important element, but I always had respect for those really wonderful people and suggest that those who go for sanuk and don't respect the superb culture and great people of SEA just to stay away !

By the way, Ken , are you living in PP ? If so, I'm gonna be for the first time in Cambo mid-november. If you're interested in a beer and a chat, it would be great to meet you.

This is a great thread and one to take note of, even if you are the tourist that takes the girl out to dinner. I have taken plenty of women to dinner like this on vacation but am well aware of the situation. One only need to look around and see that in a nice restaurant the only women in tow are the ones in a family setting which is of the minority. You will see a family gathering with children and usually it is a couple of families. The majority of tables are Khmer men in a group, either out on the town or conducting business. They will hit the brothels afterwards. What appears to be accepted is that a high roller, should he want to converse with a woman, will "invite" a high priced Sponsor girl or even a high price tag singer to sit down for a drink and casual conversation. Leaving with one is done discretely. Dating in Thailand or Cambodia on the local level (especially in public) is a no physical contact meet usually with a guy and a girl and a chaperone. Even the Thais don't consider Pattaya as being Thailand but rather some twilight zone that exist within their borders.

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: sinsin ]

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: sinsin ]

[Guest]

Good piece right at the end of that thread:

"Even the Thais don't consider Pattaya as being Thailand but rather some twilight zone that exist within their borders"

Never had any problem myself in Pattaya taking girls to restaurants, etc. I think the management are so happy to see my wallet that they are oblivious to anything else!

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Ultraviolet ]

[Guest]

I don't think a 25 dollar/baht hooker is used to men taking her out to dinner. Usually it's wham bam thank you mam. Did she look like a straight up hooker?

[Guest]

So

What does a stright up hooker look like.?

[Guest]

They were very excellent posts, I have appreciated what was siad since my 2nd visit to LOS. In spite of that I do dine with my ladies, sometimes where they feel most comfortable, and sometimes where I really do just ignore other peoples opinions of it.

I think that in most of the heavily touristed areas or just established tourist destinations they are somewhat used to it.

It is a very good idea to be conscious of the reality of it and too be aware of you dates level of discomfort it any. I think I would like to find a girl who could actually relish in the idea of snubing the class conscious and at the same time remain polite.

[pattaya127]

all that stuff about thais being this and farangs being that is so much about middle -class hypocricy. so many middle-class Thais have made themselves so ridiculous in monkeying all kind of trends and things from the west (ex: nose job), and engulfed themselves so much into western consumerism and look-alike-ism that Anyone of us entering with a girl in a restaurant if behaving properly should not give a fuck about what they think. The Thailand i make efforts not to offend is not in BKK, but in temples and in provinces like Issan. There, i feel humility and a need for restraint. these are true thai people to me. In BKK, i feel like Gulliver in Lilliput, I see all these jerks trying to be cool and showing off, only paying lip service to their religion if any, and they just look so petty to me i have to laugh sometimes. Except for making a buck, they don't know their ass from their head. Please, do not give us this "thais look down on us" thing: to look down, you have to be higher...

And Thaksin, the tax evader and non-treasure hunter would tell us how bad we behave? This is a joke! They need us, we don't need them.

[Guest]

I think a distinction can also be made between Cambodia and Thailand. I agree totally with the premise of not taking a girl in Cambodia to a nice place, but in Bangkok or Pattaya you have a much wider range of opportunities (although I still wouldn't take a bg to the Oriental for dinner!)

A Sabaii Dee MP lady took me to a very nice Thai restaurant in Pattaya where they had traditional Thai dancing, etc. I don't remember detecting anything out of the ordinary from the staff who, I assume, were used to the practice. I do remember two old farang guys who were there with their old farang wives looking at me and my date with more envy than they could contain. That was fun. Chicago Dave

[Guest]

I wouldn't have a problem with taking a girl out somewhere. If she looked nice and she had a socialble attitude, I wouldn't care less if she cleaned toilets for a living.

I also wouldn't care less about those other people sitting around me as they would be paying their wives a lot more to eat with them.

If they stare a simple "mong arai" will fix it.

Yes, I have gone out to movies and restaurants with people from all walks of life at home in OZ.

Sure if the girl is not comfortable, I wouldn't bother hanging around.

Plenty of places to go in Bangkok.

Many businesses prefer to make money, not friends anyway.

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: mushroom ]

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kratai:

So What does a stright up hooker look like.?

---

I think Goldenchild meant if she wore a tight red, slinky dress with a slit in the side. Red lipstick, fishnet stockings and stilletto heels. Smoked cigrettes in a cigrettes holder and spoke in a husky voice. Shit I am getting horny just thinking about it !

Has anyone ever seen one like that??

[Guest]

Interesting topic.

One thing I've always wondered is what about guys living in Thailand that are either married or in a serious relationship with Thai women. Have they ever had any bad experiences in public with people mistaking their wives for BG?