Bali or Thailand?

[Prosal]

"i have a few words to say when you consider vacations in Indonesia....East Timor/Aceh....up to you"

 

 

 

Artiew I'm afraid i don't understand if it is a poor joke or an incredibly limited point of view....

 

 

 

Adik, anyway great reply, thanks for it....

[gobbledonk]

Prosal and AG,

 

 

 

It was not an attempt at humour - I dont think the people of East Timor and Aceh would find it particularly funny.

 

 

 

Clearly, you both seem to believe that Indonesia is run by its government. I believe it is run by its military. Iraq, N Korea, Pakistan, Burma - none of these figure too highly in my travel plans, for the same reason. I have no issue with the people of Indonesia - they are also victims of their military and their incredibly corrupt Police force.

 

 

 

I'd rather hand the entire contents of my wallet to Thaksin (not that he needs it..) than leave a red cent in the hands of the Indonesian military - Uluwatu or no Uluwatu.

[carlton68]

Artiew,

 

 

 

up to you.

 

Thanks for staying away.

 

 

 

Carlton

[adikgede]

Clearly, you both seem to believe that Indonesia is run by its government. I believe it is run by its military. Iraq, N Korea, Pakistan, Burma - none of these figure too highly in my travel plans, for the same reason. I have no issue with the people of Indonesia - they are also victims of their military and their incredibly corrupt Police force.

 

 

 

If Indonesia was run by the military they would have never pulled out of East Timor. The military remains one of the most powerfull political entities. However the days are gone when a political apointment gets pulled because of a call from a general. Indonesia's military, TNI, is content to let the civilian government screw things up, maybe with the notion that they can step in if all hell breaks loose. The fact is that the Indonesian military is quite small relative to the population and would have a hard time administering even the populated parts of the nation if there was a collective convulsion like in May '98.

 

 

 

Nonetheless the point I am trying to make is not that the Indonesian government is good or evil, legitimate or illigitimate. The point is that you have a rather difficult standard to abide by. If you don't want to go to Bali for risk of the TNI realizing a profit on you, you should also forgo visits to the USA for they have provided considerable direct military aid to Indonesia. Likwise the military industrial complex that provides weapons to the TNI, regardless of who is paying for it, should not be ignored.

 

 

 

Ever heard of the Berkeley Mafia, a generation of New Order (Soeharto Era) economists with scholarships from the Ford Foundation. Ever heard of the IMF, the brains are european but the money is American (around 20% last I heard). George Bush wrote Megawati a rather large cheque to sit next to him, mute, and smiling after 911 to show the world that the US really loves Muslims, they just hate terorists. So taken to its rational end your standard would preclude a trip to the US aswell as Indonesia, and if you are already in the US then you should just stop paying taxes. Stop buying clothes from the GAP, Banana Republic, Tommy Higgleflopper, shoes by Nike, Reebok, Adidas......, and what ever you do mind what coffee you drink. Unless you live with the Branch Davidians Indonesia is probably all ready part of your world.

 

 

 

If the Dili massacre had not been videotaped do you think East Timor would be independent today? Were would we be today if journalist decided to give Indonesia a pass. Do you want to provide financial assistance to the Aceh resistance? Come to Jakarta and shop at the mall that is owned by one of the Acehanese Freedom Movement's, GAM, largest benefactors, or better yet just pump some more Saudi petroleum products into your life, it is an open secret here that wealthy Saudis provide GAM with uniforms and hardware. Like it or not you probably have already circulated money through Indonesia one way or another for good or for worse.

 

 

 

There are better reasons to avoid Bali:

 

 

 

The dogs, dogs, dogs, that turn on their burgler alarm after 10pm.

 

 

 

The beggers, I mean trinket mearchants, are mercilous.

 

 

 

The hookers are all from Java.

 

 

 

If you speak Indonesian well you will soon discover that the Balinese are actually quite arrogant, in a polite way.

 

 

 

The taxi drivers are deaf, you can refuse a taxi driver ten times and he will still ask you if you want a massage the next time he drives around the block.

 

 

 

You may not be understood unless you speak English with an Australian or Japanese accent.

[gobbledonk]

AG,

 

 

 

You are clearly quite passionate about this, and obviously know a great deal about Indonesia. Thanks for your insights.

 

 

 

A lot of my own passion on the issue arises out of our proximity to Indonesia, and our governments repeated jellybacking on issues like aid and military training. I may speak English with an Australian accent, but that doesnt necessarily make me welcome in Indonesia post-East Timor ....

 

 

 

I am not advocating my hardline stance towards deciding where I will and wont travel, and you are right in pointing out that I face a lot of hurdles if I'm to travel almost ANYWHERE based on the human rights record of the intended country (including Australia - the only people we treat worse than Aboriginals are illegal immigrants..). I simply believe that Indonesia is a special case, for many reasons, some of which you have highlighted.

 

 

 

You also said :

 

 

 

Stop buying clothes from the GAP, Banana Republic, Tommy Higgleflopper, shoes by Nike, Reebok, Adidas......,

 

 

 

I agree 100%, and the list is much larger than the sample you have provided. As for staying away from the US, I also agree - at no point did I attempt to hold the US up as an example of an egalitarian, democratic society. The Scandinavians could teach Americans a great deal about building a functional and tolerant society, but who'd be willing to accept their tax rates in a society which abhors anything remotely resembling socialism ? Instead, the disparity between rich and poor continues to blow out on a daily basis, and the end result is cities which are among the most dangerous in the world, despite the massive wealth generated by the US economy each year. Is Australia any better ? Other than our provision of an (entrenched and unsustainable) welfare state, I dont believe that we are. We want it all, but no-one wants a tax hike.

 

 

 

In the West, most of us are ruled by global corporations, whether we like it or not, but at least we have the illusion of freedom and the panacea of hope : those who live under a military regime dont have either.

 

 

 

When I go to China in September, I will be metaphorically treading on the graves of the protesters who died in Tianamen Square, and contributing towards the maintenance of the stranglehold that the Communist Party maintains over its people. And what of Tibet ? Does it compare to the brutality meted out by the Indonesians and the militia over many years ? I dont believe it does, but our media is far more sharply focused on the Indonesians than the Chinese.

 

 

 

We could debate this until we filled KS' database, but I suspect that neither of us would budge. I acknowledge the right of other board members to go wherever they damn well want - up to you

 

 

 

Finally, as an Australian, I'd like to apologise to the East Timorese people on behalf of our spineless government. Despite loud warnings from virtually every human rights organisation in the region, they refused to commit peacekeepers until after the election, effectively sealing the fate of many pro-Independence supporters and their families.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

OK guys,

 

 

 

This a sanuk board (read: FUN). Regional Sanuk is a place to inform others of having fun outside of Thailand. It is, obviously, not a place for political/governmental debate. Want to share some fun experiences you had in Bali? Fine. If the government situation there influenced your experience in searching for such, then also fine. But this thread is clearly going down a road far beyond that, and which has nothing to do with regional SANUK. Let's get back on track, OK?

 

 

 

HT

 

 

 

 

[jingjoh]

I would keep well away from the illegal immigrant issue if I were you, take a look at the Thai immigration detention centres, Hong Kong uses cages, dont even mention China. We treat em better than we treat our own homeless and poor.

 

 

 

I spit on the loser dole bludging rent a crowd protesters encouraging these people, and abhor the destruction of the things we have provided them.

 

 

 

They are illegal get it, paid someone to smuggle them into another country. Have you seen the housing commision flats in Fitzroy? full of illegals and Vietnamese, still collecting welfare and getting hugely subsidized housing, how do I know? Very close 48yr old Vietnamese friend was head of the viet section of Fitzroy housing commision offices for 15 yrs.

 

 

 

Sorry KS

 

 

[gobbledonk]

Peace, Jingjoh

 

 

 

I have a tendency to get emotional over things I cant change - the Thai's call it 'think too much' ...

[pattaya127]

totally agree with you about the "stay away!" PCness. It's ok to give one's opinion, but to put a guilt trip on anyone who asks about the place is just too much. Why not boycott Thailand too, i hear they have a well-run prostitution industry over there, with disgusting fat old slobs buying little thai girls. Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Bali: I like the place, damned touristy, but so is venice and paris and... I am a music afficionado,and Gamelan shows with the dance, i can never tire of. Sorry to hear about the dogs, maybe we need to send them a few Lopburi monkeys to scratch them where it itches...........

 

 

 

PS: Artiew, the PCness is not about having strong opinions (i do too), but to tell someone he ought not to go because you feel like that.