A bargirl's standing in the village

[pattaya127]

We have to understand that unless we speak of color of hair or price of a BTS fare, what we enjoy here is talking about things, not write anything in marble.

 

If one does speak about greed, then evryone of us can relate to a thai story we heard of. If someone syas his wife's neighbours cried at the sation when she left for farangLand, then once again, we can relate about that too.

 

All I am saying is that rumours, gossips, jealousies, envies, don't mean that much that the girl is stoned (morally at least) for being a prostitute, just that she is one, or is expected to be one, but how much of a social stigma/rejection does this create either to her, or to her family. I do agree that being a prostitute invites a lot of comments, but what are the concrete disdvantages socially your data (to take Cent's word) has shown, in the village.

[jasmine]

Hi,

 

I grew up in the North and the village there, people has had to be very discreet about their children being in prostitution.

 

In the town where my mother is now (closer to central Thailand), prostitution is not approved. However, many people assume that Thai women who are married to "farangs" were prostitues once and some of these women have been insulted.

 

Most Thais will not insult ones in "your face" style and IMO, no matter what money the profession brings, the respect to the people in prostitution is not there.

 

Jasmine

[Guest lazyphil]

<<However, many people assume that Thai women who are married to "farangs" were prostitues once and some of these women have been insulted>>

 

Then they really must stop wearing mini skirts, platform boots, gold and revealing tops :hubba:

[Central Scrutinizer]

P127,

 

"We have to understand that unless we speak of color of hair or price of a BTS fare, what we enjoy here is talking about things, not write anything in marble."

 

You're right P. Nothing is set in stone. Every person is different, every family, every village, every situation, BUT, there are similarities among these different people, families, villages, and situations. It's these differences AND similarities we discuss here. We share our experiences and discuss our opinions about our conclusions and the thoughts they've provoked, and how we handle these things when we come across them. We all have our own unique experiences and ways of handling them, and our own seperate ways of processing the information within our minds as to what the heck is/was/has gone down around us. Some can be more correct than others, IF, they have the larger experience in certain areas than others have. Or are you saying that everyone is right in all subjects and no one is wrong? If so what's the point of a discussion board? I'm here to learn, and yes, to teach what I know and have experienced on this subject of Thailand and it's people and culture. I'm no expert, and don't ever claim to be, but I am willing to share my experiences and discuss them with the others here. And not get bent out of shape if someone shows me they have more information on a certain subject than I do, through their experience in certain subjects and areas, and from their obvious intelligent expression of these experiences. It's how I learn more without having to experience it all by myself. Life is too short to experience everything. It's why we humans share our experiences. It adds to the collective knowledge of the species. I'm trying to tell you that the sentiments you've expressed in this thread is a bit off. Not entirely incorrect, but skewed. Possibly by the fact that you haven't lived in a village for any period of time. I have, so what I'm trying to show you is where your "intuitions" are out of synq with the knowledge and experiences I've had. We're here to discuss, right? If I see you post something I think is incorrect, or off, I WILL say something about this, and TRY to discuss it with you. My problem with some things you post isn't what you say, but the fact you don't elaborate and tell us HOW you've come to have these "intuitions" and thoughts and ideas and conclusions about certain subjects brought up here. I'm trying to draw you out to explain more of your thoughts and experiences, by discussing them. I want more from you than a hit and run comment. I want more depth, and a discussion. I would like you to spend some time explaining these comments.

 

"If one does speak about greed, then evryone of us can relate to a thai story we heard of."

 

Well, I would rather we could discuss some of these matters through mutual experiences, rather than some hearsay stories we've heard about. I trust most of the members here are truthful in relating their experiences here, are of normal intelligence, have a decent ability to express themselves, and aren't just some trolls trying to provoke responses to boost their egos. Have you experienced greed from a Thai? I have, as has many others here I feel. The subject is "A bargirl's standing in the village". Greed plays a part in this standing also. So it's a "part" of the discussion, a part of the equation sometimes.

 

"If someone syas his wife's neighbours cried at the sation when she left for farangLand, then once again, we can relate about that too."

 

Yes, a moving story. I've seen similar emotions expressed by Thais, although it is rare to see a Thai man cry in public. My wife's father cried at our wedding. I was touched by his obvious emotion, and his obvious love and happiness for his daughter, my wife. It was the first time I had ever seen a Thai man cry in public. Well, actually not the first. I once wrote a story called, "Things Glimpsed Along the Road" or something like that, a few years ago, it's here in the TR/Stories section somewhere, where I mentioned as I was driving along an Isaan country road I came across an old man walking along the dirt berm, as I passed him I noticed he had tears streaming down his face. I've always wondered exactly what had moved him so. I've recently finished having a shop/restaurant built across from my Surin house. The boss man, almost a boy really, mid twenties, younger than his workers he was, actually cried when he finished the job with his crew and we were paying him off. When asked why he was crying he said he had never been treated so well by anyone he had worked for. We did nothing more than give the guys a free beer Chang each after work each day, and a couple bottles of Lao Khao to share before sleeping, and give them some free foods (meats, pork and chicken dishes) to supplement their rice pot dinner rice at night. (They had an electric rice cooker and a large bag of rice for eating they'd brought along. And we let them pitch their hammocks and mosquito nets to sleep in the empty house attached to the shop they were building.) Nothing costly, and something I just figured into the cost as the way to do business with those working for me. Keep the help happy and you get good service, usually anyways. It cost me maybe an extra 30 dollars US (a thousand baht or so extra) over the four days they did the construction. And they did a hell of a job. I'd recommend these guys to anyone needing/wanting construction of a shop or house in this area, Surin. Very good work done. I was impressed by their work ethic and skill. Something of a first for me in this, as I haven't been all that impressed up until now of work I've had done on other things/projects. He and his crew will be back next week to finish off a couple of bedrooms I'm having built in the shop's house so we can rent them out to nursing students from the nearby hospital.

 

"All I am saying is that rumours, gossips, jealousies, envies, don't mean that much that the girl is stoned (morally at least) for being a prostitute, just that she is one, or is expected to be one, but how much of a social stigma/rejection does this create either to her, or to her family."

 

So you are saying unless there is a public outcry over this that there are no social, financial, emotional, even spiritual consequences over this stuff? Sorry, but I feel you are over simplifying the consequences. Thais are not openly critical usually in these matters. They are much more subtle in showing their disapproval. But the consequences are real, and do make a difference in the girl's and her family's standing in the village. The villages are close knit. They are small. Nothing much gets by them really in matters concerning the families living there in them. And there are ways that they can show their feelings without actually making one lose face publicly. Ways that will affect the girl and her family.

 

"I do agree that being a prostitute invites a lot of comments, but what are the concrete disdvantages socially"

 

Concrete disadvantages? Well, ostracization is one. Non inclusion in social events. No longer helping a family plant and pick their rice crop for free is another, as a lot of the families do during the planting/harvesting season. Not attending family tambons is another. Buying what one needs from another shop rather than the closer shop of the girl's family shop is another. (Or using whatever competition of the family's business of whatever they do for a means of making money.) There are a lot of ways the village can show their disapproval without actually publicly "stoning" the girl and condemning the family. They are real consequences to the girl and her family within the village structure, and do affect her, or at least her family. Just less public.

 

"your data (to take Cent's word) has shown, in the village."

 

You are a bit confused here P127. I never used the word "data" in any of my posts in this thread. You yourself used this word in one of your own replies to me! So don't be putting words in my mouth that I've not uttered. Go back and check my posts. This is your own word used, in one of your posts, not mine. Let's get the facts straight here bub. ::

 

Cent

[Guest]

>>They are. It's just not put on public display as it would be in the west. Why? The Buddhist religion. Those that believe, believe that in a future reincarnation these sort will get their comeuppance.<<

 

Some places here are so far gone and twisted that even that doesn't hold true unfortunately. In Ban Jan before the girls go off to Switzerland the Local Monks hold a "Pussy Blessing" ceremony so that the girl will be lucky with as many customers as possible.

 

The only "religous" or "moral" teaching they get is that they are obligated to repay their parents.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Jasmine,

 

"I grew up in the North and the village there, people has had to be very discreet about their children being in prostitution."

 

And this is exactly what I have seen myself. Discretion. It's not openly talked about or acknowledged. But it is noticed and talked about and gossiped over out of the family or girl involved's presence. And there are some places that do almost openly flaunt their involvement in the trade. Like it's a competition to see whose daughter can send back the most money. Sad to say. (One I've heard about is near Chiang Rai I believe it was.)

 

"In the town where my mother is now (closer to central Thailand), prostitution is not approved."

 

As I think we can safely say is the case in most of Thailand. It's not approved of by the general population, but it does exist, and there are social consequences for the ladies and families involved in this wouldn't you say? How would you say this disapproval is shown or expressed by most Thais and their families? What less open and in your face ways is this disapproval manifested by those who don't like this?

 

"However, many people assume that Thai women who are married to "farangs" were prostitues once and some of these women have been insulted."

 

Which is sad. And a source of anger for a lot of Thais is this perception of Thailand being the "whorehouse" of Asia. It affects many Thai women abroad, and at home. Many Thai women don't even like being seen talking or walking with a farang man, even their own farang husband, because of this. They are subjected to ridicule and harrassment by the some of the more uncouth Thai men sitting around at the taxi stands and motocyke stands and construction sites. Rather like it was in the past in America when a Black man would be seen with a white woman. I imagine it can be very uncomfortable for a Thai woman in Thailand. It does look though that Mr. Taksin's government is trying to deal with this perception, although the money made in the profession is huge and he may not succeed. It looks like it's all mostly for show though, nothing concrete.

 

"Most Thais will not insult ones in "your face" style"

 

Exactly as I have seen myself usually here. It's usually much more subtle, disregarding the blatant harrassment by some of the Taxi mugs. Who are not in their village, so can usually get away with this type of blatant disrespectful behaviour.

 

"and IMO, no matter what money the profession brings, the respect to the people in prostitution is not there."

 

As I've noticed myself. It's always nice to have your imput in these discussions, Jasmine. You are a wonderful asset to this board! :: I don't know how we'd get along without your wisdom, humor, and intelligent input here. Don't ever leave us! The board would be much poorer without you here!

 

Cent

[Central Scrutinizer]

BKKGrey,

 

Hi stranger! :-)

 

"Some places here are so far gone and twisted that even that doesn't hold true unfortunately. In Ban Jan before the girls go off to Switzerland the Local Monks hold a "Pussy Blessing" ceremony so that the girl will be lucky with as many customers as possible."

 

Truly sick isn't it? The monks are supplying a perverted version of Buddha's teachings and these "good luck" pussy blessings are an outright disgrace. I imagine they get quite a bundle of baht from this village/town for their ministerial works in this regard, huh? The problem is the monks can be very "material" themselves, and easily perverted in their ministry. I described a problem my wife's village is having with the head monk there now, and his abuse of the monies given for the Wat he uses for his own, and his family's gain, in a story I did recently called "More Songs for the Dead". It seems to be a problem all over the country now. Rogue monks taking the money and using it for themselves, taking off their robes at night and hitting the brothels and bars and such.

 

"The only "religous" or "moral" teaching they get is that they are obligated to repay their parents."

 

Hahaha. Yeah. I know what you are saying Grey! :: The only teachings surviving are the ones that make them money. Greed and modern consumerism, the root of all evil here now-a-days. As everywhere else it seems.

 

BTW, I've been meaning to reply to some of your excellent posts here, just haven't had the time yet. (Actually shouldn't be on the net now. Have lots to do to finish the shop and house I should be doing right now!) Thanks for the imput. Can you imagine a city/town/village like this one anywhere else in the world? Have you ever been there? I've heard about this Ban Jan before, but have never been there. Where exactly is it? Might be interesting just to take a drive through and see the place. I'd imagine there are some beautiful homes all competing with each other. A 4x4 in every driveway! Or a BMW or Mercedes. ::

 

Cent

[ThaiHome]

"Some places here are so far gone and twisted that even that doesn't hold true unfortunately. In Ban Jan before the girls go off to Switzerland the Local Monks hold a "Pussy Blessing" ceremony so that the girl will be lucky with as many customers as possible. "

 

Just out of curiosity, what is your source for this storey?

TH

[Central Scrutinizer]

P127,

 

"I maintain people are not too judgemental, and not a great stigma is attached to that way of making money, in poorer settings."

 

Well, that is your opinion. I think you confuse outwardly appearances as to Thais not openly showing their feelings, with their not having judgmental attitudes toward certain people and other things. Thais can be, and are a lot of the time, very judgmental as a whole society. There is definetly a stigma attached to being a prostitute here, not only by the upper echelons of society, but by all levels in society, as a whole. Each individual has their own feelings and depth of concerns for these things, but as a society in whole there IS a stigma attached. Even by the poorest of Thais.

 

"I tend to think they are affected more personally, within themselves, by the profession than socially."

 

Hmmmm. I agree that on a personal level the consequences can be devastating to the person, depending on the individual and how they are percieved by their peers if it is known or suspected "outside their sphere of bargirl and related scene habitants", but maintain myself that this also includes as one reason for this being so IS because of the social stigma attached to being a prostitute. Otherwise why would the person be so upset by their involvement in the scene with themselves. It's a part of the whole. In differing degrees for each individual and circumstance.

The girls are quite comfortable mostly while within the confines of the bar scene and among their working girl peers, but outside I've seen quite a lot of them are very nervous about how they are seen by others, especially the further you get them away from the area where the scene is located. (I'm not saying all of them, just a lot I've been with. Some are actually quite brazen, and seem not to care a whit what others think, but this doesn't mean there is no stigma there, only that the girl has decided she just doesn't give a shit what others think, especially strangers. I'd dare say a lot of these seemingly uncaring lasses would change their tune drasticallt if they were somewhere they would be seen by fellow villagers whom they actually know, and know their family. Not all, but most.) A woman who seems quite happy to walk along with you holding your hand on Soi 4 can change her attitude very radically in a different area of the city or country. Why is this so if not because of the stigma attached to being a prostitute?

 

Cent

[Guest]

>>Just out of curiosity, what is your source for this storey?<<

 

People close to me that have gone through it. Parents of girls that have left the village to work in Bangkok often talk about it. Purely because they weren't willing to let their kids work in the trade, they felt happier just relocating their familys.

 

Its not some secret ceremony its an openly done thing. After its finished the girls are given some "trinkets" they are meant to keep on them to make sure it works.