Afghanistan - Did We Learn Anything ?

[acockasian]

 

It turned out that the Taliban was on Osama bin Laden's payroll, and had been for a LOOOONG time.

 

 

 

 

 

Ever since the covert and very effective cooperation with US efforts to defeat the Russians in the '70s. The problem is that in many Afghan eyes the US and a few NATO troops became the new Russians.

[acockasian]

In fact they are already at war with Iran. They've effectively sanctioned them out of the global financial system. Also the CIA are funding internal Iran terrorists (ironically described as such by the Pentagon) to knock off Iran scientists.

 

 

Sanctions have forced countries doing business with Iran to be commodity based rather than pricing oil in dollars. The steady movement towards the gold dinar and silver dirham has only been helped by this and that, long term, could be very negative to US interests.

[kamui]

A steady diet of American news will lead to a very different view of the world.

 

In regard to learning from history: At the time of 9/11 the GOP had cleansed itself from all politicians with influence who were cautious about fighting a war and who had experience how to fight land war in an extreme environment. And any high ranking soldier who uttered some words of caution found himself out job immediately.

 

All those who had to decide going to war and how to fight the two wars were those who never went to war, or worse who found excuses not fight when they were young.

[panadolsandwich]

A steady diet of American news will lead to a very different view of the world.

 

And with that - you've clearly hit the nail on the head. People live in such fear, which make them compliant. Just look up 'Creel comission'. People can be turned into bloodthirsty savages at the drop of the hat.

 

Also I agree with Kamui - all those young men firing indiscrimately listening to heavy metal in their APC's. It seems like such a bizarre decision to ever go into Afghanistan. I'm sure there was something behind it - but we won't know - we won't know for sure for some time.

 

Also I'm not anti-American, I'm just reasonably intelligent. And when the media drums you down so much to the point where you don't care - well you know that the people with the real power have won.

 

Keep drinking beer America - stay fat, pay through the nose for health care, watch the cheap entertainment on the telly - watch Fox News and Bill O'reilly. Drink your lukewarm stale beer and tip because the staff are on a slave wage. And if they lose their job - they can still sleep in the gutter - or better still get room and board fighting in Afghanistan. Anyhow - they can take good care of themselves because well, I'm alright. How do they say it - I'm fine Jack. You'll take care of yourself - hey! maybe buy a gun - jesus that would be a good idea! Go through the drive through church and shoot the signs on the side of the road.

 

Jesus - sounds like I'm trying to write for Lonely Planet. Anyhow I know a good place in Dallas that makes a good BBQ. 24h smoke time.

[gobbledonk]

I'm not anti-American, I'm just reasonably intelligent.

 

I'd put that in my sig - pure gold - but I know how many people it would piss off big time. The disturbing thing is that the majority of Americans one encounters online are ferociously intelligent - they didnt own the 20th Century by accident - but it makes me wonder who the hell voted for GWB ? I suspect that there are millions of Americans who despair for what is happening to their country, and smart politicians like Obama were able to capitalise on that. Anyway, there is a whole thread here dedicated to American politics, so I'll leave it at that.

[gobbledonk]

America has infinitely more money than bin Laden so we could have 'paid' for him, couldn't we?

 

And yet a large part of the initial Al Qaeda budget seemed to come from Arab oil, in some cases the same Saudis the Americans have been cozying up to for some 50 years. That, and the Opium crop that ends up in veins all over the 'free world'. As I said earlier - nuke the Middle East from orbit - its the only way to be sure.

[Specialist]

Gobbledonk, what you don't understand is this: As bad as George W. Bush *MIGHT* have appeared, to the people who voted for him, Al Gore and John Kerry were MUCH, MUCH WORSE.

 

The ugly fact of life in American Presidential politics, since at least 1988, is that the voters who voted for the Republican candidate weren't really voting FOR him, but rather were voting AGAINST the Democratic candidate. The three-way election of 1992, in which Ross Perot, an independent, took about 20% of the popular vote, most of it from Bush Sr., was the same story: a whole bunch of people who voted for Perot were voting AGAINST both Clinton and Bush Sr.

[panadolsandwich]

Gobbledonk, what you don't understand is this: As bad as George W. Bush *MIGHT* have appeared, to the people who voted for him, Al Gore and John Kerry were MUCH, MUCH WORSE.

 

The ugly fact of life in American Presidential politics, since at least 1988, is that the voters who voted for the Republican candidate weren't really voting FOR him, but rather were voting AGAINST the Democratic candidate. The three-way election of 1992, in which Ross Perot, an independent, took about 20% of the popular vote, most of it from Bush Sr., was the same story: a whole bunch of people who voted for Perot were voting AGAINST both Clinton and Bush Sr.

 

I don't get it - I really don't. You've only got the choice between two business factions. You are effectively ruled by the corporate elite. Yes, they'll be happy for you to debate the merits of either party - keeps you busy and besides they don't care which party gets in much - either way they are going to screw you. The media is in overdrive making it out as if this is meaningful. Besides, even the President is only there because he serves the people with the real power, otherwise he wouldn't be President. GWB is an idiot - he clearly established that at multiple press conferences and most infamously with his 'Texas saying - fool me once and um?'. Hence it's important to note that it doesn't really matter who is the President. It really doesn't. It's the people that paid for him to become President.

 

Has it ever crossed your mind it's just an elaborate charade? I mean, think about it - you vote once, then the elite will thank you very much to shut up, because they will be the ones to lead things. This kind of thing could work if you had a meaningful choice but you don't - which is a great shame. Especially with your post - you seem to think it is meaningful.

[Redbaron]

I think for a long time, people have been voted out rather than in. Lesser of two evils and all that. Sad really. Countries like the US and Australia should be booming all the time, and would be with the right leadership. Then again, I'm a pretty simple lad.

[YimSiam]

Negotiations with the Taliban to turn over Bin Laden (by the Clinton administration) began after he was indicted for the August 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These negotiations continued even after 9/11 though by that time is was obvious the Taliban was never going to give him up. There are different opinions about what went wrong over the 3 years and if the Taliban ever intended to turn him over.

 

Interesting Washington Post article from October 2001about what happened .

 

Diplomats Met With Taliban on Bin Laden

 

I do agree that an all out war was probably not the right thing and a limited effort to just snatch him and leave the Taliban in power might have worked out better. I think Bush was very much afraid that a limited Special Forces type snatch would not have worked and caused that force to be all but wiped out. He was no doubt haunted by the aborted Iran hostage strike and the subsequent political fallout that likely caused the Reagan landslide.

 

But hindsight, even when 20/20 is not always a sure thing. I don’t think that if the US had got hold of Bin Laden in late 2001 in a limited military effort it would have changed things very much today.

TH

 

Being from 2001, when certain developments had yet to occur, that article fails to note what is now an astounding fact - that one of the Taliban contacts for the bin Laden negotiation was an Afghan Pashtun leader who had been proposed by the Taliban as their unofficial envoy to the United Nations (unofficial because the Northern Alliance still technically held the Afghan seat). His name? Hamid Karzai. Soon after, he broke with the Taliban and settled in Pakistan -- and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

YimSiam