pattaya127 Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 there would be a few other complications, which would make that not easy at all. ---------------------------------- There are a lot of expats and long stayers on the board who could really get into the intricacies and niceties of certain aspects of life in LOS. They seem to post less about their experience than punters. A post like Zane's should really inspire others to do so. I can see how his upcountry trip, away from Beach Rd, was an eye-opener on other thai realities, and he found it wortwhile and exciting. I also can see, from his writing, he was definitely curious, attentive and wide-eyed about it, not jaded, close-minded or too cautious. i thank him for sharing his thoughts. I had also bad vibes from the low-life boys hanging around the bus station in Buri ram. And my swedish friend who stays all winter in my GF's village with his own GF, told me last winter after one of his daily jogs, that on the main Rd to the village (Non Thai district, Korat), he was accosted by youth who definitely were looking for a fight. A unique occurence though, as he goes running or biking everyday thru-out his stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 >>>>from the low-life boys hanging around the bus station in Buri ram. <<<< one of the reasons long term expats get a bit tired of posting are some of the resulting debates. don't get it the wrong way please, but just take for example that comment of yours here, "low life boys". for you that somewhat implicates a small bottom feeding minority in thailand. while in my experience that is a very large sector of the society here. OK, i can discuss that in a civil manner with you, but take as an example the last debate on violence - i, and others, are drawn into an anal debate with someone who has no personal experience whatsoever in what he talks about, but has to contest our personal experiences with theoretic babble. that is insulting and extremely tiring. just look at that debate, and the one about the taxidriver, i have posted more than a few personal experiences during those debates, i posted that i was present at several gangconflicts, i was there when people armed to there teeth with all sorts of deadly weapons were facing each other, i was there when people died for very slight offenses. just to be insulted by some fucking twat that i would live in a selfmade dreamworld just because he, the tourist, or the sexpat, has never seen that sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 example that comment of yours here, "low life boys". for you that somewhat implicates a small bottom feeding minority in thailand. --------------------- For me, it does not implicate anything, but in this case, you generalized again, extrapolating on one word, putting me in a category. I can take it, but it may get tiring to others. The problem is, it's the thai woman who was with me, herself from Sri Saket/Issan who told me they were low-lifes and is not used to such behaviour. Me, i am not discussing how many of them, they are or not, just telling of an instance in my upcountry trip. If you want, I can give you her number and you can tell her how much of a farang with a limited view on Thailand she has . just to be insulted by some fucking twat ---------------------------- That's persecution paranoia on your part, no one insults you, or throws finger-pointing words at you in that "taxi" thread or others. On the contrary, I cannot remember anyone ever writing you did not know squash about what you talk about. But they may have strongly disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 >>>For me, it does not implicate anything, but in this case, you generalized again, extrapolating on one word, putting me in a category. <<< sorry, but in several previous discussions you have expressed that if i am not mistaken. but lets not dwell on that. >>>That's persecution paranoia on your part, no one insults you, <<< it is insulting my intelligence when a poster implicates that i live in a fantasy world. just go and have a look to the threads i menationed. being drawn in such anal debates like those ones i mentioned makes me question WTF i am actually doing here at times. i am trying to communicate some of my experiences so that others can benefit (which i believe is now appreciated by most), but it is tiring to argue with people who refuse to accept that i have that experience, and who are not willing to put themselves into situations where they could get some practical experience. if i would not be that anal myself i would have said: fuggit, and left a long time ago. i guess some of the less anal long termers have done that. and i know for a fact that one does for exactly that reason not involve himself in those discussions anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 but in several previous discussions you have expressed that if i am not mistaken --------------------------- Yes, no need to dwell as here's what was my take not long ago in the IS THAILAND VIOLENT thread: "There is no doubt in my mind that Thailand has a lot of violence, i am not qualified to say if it is A violent society". i am trying to communicate some of my experiences ------------------------------- that may be the crux of what members are wishing to hear from you, more stories, not only experiences, ie. social comments. I doubt that any expat having posted stories, were feeling misunderstood and embattled. I also know 2 or 3 members who would wish to talk of their "experiences" but will abstain, fearing to be rebutted with mentions of ignorance and rose-tinted glasses. Though your view of Thailand is that of a very risky place, away from the eyes of most farangs, we may also enjoy to read stuff that may be more limited in scope, and doesn't intend to be a social comment. Free of us to engage the poster afterwards, but on the merits of his post, not categorizing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Says zanemay: Of course it?s not really all that fast or artificial. And BTW ? I don?t know a great deal about Lady Boys, but I do know that there is only one way to begin to understand them: Try to get over your prejudices and hang-ups (that wasn?t easy for me) and believe this: they are girls. Not gays, not fags, not just guys trying really hard to look like women. They think of themselves as women. They are women - with dicks and more testerone than a lot of us have, granted - but they are women. Some legal complications with the ID card, but that?s about it. They hold down respectable jobs and are acknowledged in all the media. Zane May Sorry Dude but I don't see ladyboys holding down jobs in the "respectable" part of Thai society or as you put it "respectable jobs". You may see them in hair salons and fashion type venues but you sure as hell won't see them working for the government ministries or at a bank. As far as media acknowledgement, they are usually the butt of jokes and comic type relief. Not taken serious at all except maybe by friends and family members. Actually most ladyboys are engaged in some form of prostitution because that is for most the only way they can secure the funds neccessary to pay for their numerous transforming operations. Maybe on your next trip you can spend some time with them and learn a little more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Sorry Dude but I don't see ladyboys holding down jobs in the "respectable" part of Thai society or as you put it "respectable jobs". You may see them in hair salons and fashion type venues but you sure as hell won't see them working for the government ministries or at a bank. ---------------------- I respectfully disagree with you. You may think of the freaks from the P4P joints and streets we all can think of, but there are more than a few who hold respectable jobs. Certainly, i have seen some working in banks upcountry, and I am sure there are some in working in ministries, though i rarely hang out in ministries, so you can deny me knowledge on that. But respectable jobs, like in shopping malls, managing or selling, places where women are hired, yep, there are. Transgendered have always been a part of Thailand and a few other countries around. And they did not have to become prostitutes. It's the all advent of western middle-class morals that may gradually attach to it a stigma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Well thats where our experiences differ. I don't see full blown ladyboys in those types of jobs. I see them in fashion, entertainment and tourist related venues. They may even own their own business. The closest I will see in repsectable jobs is a a guy who you know is "on his way" in that direction but he is not going to the office with long hair and makeup minus the boob job. A katoey for me is one who has done the complete transformation to appear like a woman not one who is halfway there of a quarter of the way. Once your injections and silicone plus every other nip and tuck is in plce there is no going back; there is no pretending to be a man by day and a woman at night. Transgenders may have co-existed peacefully with the normal populace for a long period of time but that does not make them socially "acceptable" so to speak so I don't agree with you thinking that it is a Western stigma being attached to it. Ask some of your educated Thai friends with some sort of status about katoeys and how acceptable they are. No one minds them or bothers them but they sure as hell are not going to be invited over to the family dinner party with the local politician or dine with the boss or drink at the same table with the police chief. Sorry P127 I have met too many katoey who have been disowned by their families to some extent to believe that the "stigma" you mention is a purely Western influenced one. There is a stigma to being a ladyboy and it haas nothing to do with Western values of morals. When I see the PM buddy buddy with a katoey then I will truly believe that there is no stigma attached to being transgender. BTW- When I do visit upcountry I don't go into banks. So I have no experiences involving katoey working for upcountry banks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 >>>When I see the PM buddy buddy with a katoey then I will truly believe that there is no stigma attached to being transgender.<<< there were a few who went budybuddy with their battyboys though. does that count? and our social crusader is a bit limp as well... but yes, in some sectors of society katoy are definately discriminated against, no doubt. especially in the conservative urban middle classes. even though - it is not that easy for them to discriminate given the massive amount of open katoys in schools, colleges and universities. in the village society, generally speaking, they are very accepted as part of the group. what i would say is that katoy are partly discriminated against, but nevertheless, i have never seen a country as a whole where they can live as open as here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lazyphil Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 <<but yes, in some sectors of society katoy are definately discriminated against, no doubt. especially in the conservative urban middle classes>> Well, if the Thai urban middle classes are anything like those in my town i.e. Tuscan vacating, muesli eating, volvo driving fuck-wits then those lady boys are better off out of trying to break such snotty circles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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