Guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 >>>that may be the crux of what members are wishing to hear from you, more stories, not only experiences, ie. social comments. <<< well, even if i would have the time and all that to write some stories, it would still be full of social comments. that is me, and you gotta live with that. >>>Free of us to engage the poster afterwards, but on the merits of his post, not categorizing him.<<< in case of zanemay that is a bit difficult as he and what he does is main part of the post. how can i possibly criticise the person who fucks a "non-working girl" and gives her the boot when she so "unexpectetly" wants to go the logical step further, marriage, kids and securuty, without naming him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 >>>Well, if the Thai urban middle classes are anything like those in my town i.e. Tuscan vacating, muesli eating, volvo driving fuck-wits then those lady boys are better off out of trying to break such snotty circles <<< they are worse. muesli would be classified very subversive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shygye Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 [color:"green"] The closest I will see in repsectable jobs is a a guy who you know is "on his way" in that direction but he is not going to the office with long hair and makeup minus the boob job. [/color] I saw a katoey working as a "salesgirl" in Central Dept store. Maybe you are a poor katoey spotter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Says shygye: I saw a katoey working as a "salesgirl" in Central Dept store. Maybe you are a poor katoey spotter. and that my friend may be the crux of the matter!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongatu Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 You know, no matter what you say in a post, someone will probably misunderstand or make some post that could be taken as an "insult" to your "intelligence." But understanding that, you don't have to be offended by it. Your response (or lack thereof) to an offensive post is entirely "up to you." You don't have to allow an offensive post to offend you and you don't even have to respond to every post that takes issue with what you have said. Look at the sh*t Zane takes (not referring to your posts) in response to some of his posts. Without expressing any opinion on the merits of his posts or the responses he gets, imo he handles it quite well and doesn't let it stop him from posting. The bottom line is you seem imo to be a thoughtful person who has a lot of experience and insight into Thai life, culture, etc., and the majority of board members would no doubt find any further posts you might care to make (beyond merely responding to other posts) to be of great value. So I hope you will reconsider and maybe not be so concerned with being insulted, offended or misunderstood by a minority of readers here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 that is me, and you gotta live with that. ----------------------------------- I do, and it is my pleasure to accept you as you are. Do not change a thing, which is in my saying: "not only...", not "don't...". Just stories to which you can add social comments if you wish. in case of zanemay that is a bit difficult as he and what he does is main part of the post -------------------------------------- I saw the main of his post as a story. It tells about the place and yes, it may tell about the guy. But I think you tend to (pre-)judge people a little too fast and too much. I may be guilty to do that too, but i will gladly step back when it's pointed to me. The problem with our society is that very few people get their stories out, the individual is minimized, categorized and trivialized. Even if Zanemay is out of step with your or my view of things, see that his story includes more than points you frown upon. I think it's the judgemental angry reactions that drive people away from posting, and that is a loss for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 FlyW answered for me pretty much. There are still plenty of instances where they are accepted. I would only add that some have totally integrated the appearance of a woman, and are even married. You may be able to tell they are transgendered, but nothing outrageous or that jumps to the eye. As far as Pm, disavowing parents and educated friends, well, that's the westernizing influence I am talking about. Indeed, the singling out and correction of transgenderness was started under the rule of King Chula, and accelerated with Pibun's dictatorships. Last, in thai society, a lot of personal behaviour is altered depending on the context it happens in. A BG might find it perfectly normal to dress skimpily around Suk or Pattaya, and dress plainly when visiting her village. All kind of sex is tolerated in Thailand, at the same time, it is not viewed proper to flaunt it or discuss it publicly. Whatever it is a katoey, a swinger, a prostitute, a bi-sexual or a gay. Buddhism itself discourages only one type of sex, adulterous. These are very simplified examples, the code of social and public behaviour is very complex, and thais are better than westerners at respecting it, while, in a measure of preserved indigenous/unwesternized remnmant, allowing people to express themselves as they wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Says pattaya127: As far as Pm, disavowing parents and educated friends, well, that's the westernizing influence I am talking about. These are very simplified examples, the code of social and public behaviour is very complex, and thais are better than westerners at respecting it, while, in a measure of preserved indigenous/unwesternized remnmant, allowing people to express themselves as they wish. Naming examples where katoey are accepted does not mean that they have access to every facet of society and business, there is still very much discrimination against them and a job as a salesclerk in a department store does not translate into running for political office nor being in management at Bangkok Bank. I don't believe that a few instances of tolerance and acceptance equals society wide EQUALITY. We make that same mistake here in the USA where you place a few minoritites in key positions and you create the facade that everyone is now equal. This point you make about Western influence creating a stigma is where you and I also disagree. I think you make the matter way too complicated with all of the historical references and talk about Buddhism and such. You simply have to go to ask any Thai man how he would feel if his son became a Katoey or more importantly would he WANT his son to be a Katoey. Really very simple and there is nothing Western about it. Thais tolerate transgenders and accept them to a point but ask anyone if they want their son to be one and I don't care if they live in a poor village shack or an opulent mansion, I am sure the majority would not prefer it. Tolerance does not equal 100% acceptance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya127 Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 I am sure the majority would not prefer it. ---------------------------- yes, same as punters, thais or farangs. They see no problems in being around P4P joints, but would not wish to meet their daughters working there. I am talking about tolerance in society, not what dad and Mom want, that they may not be able to change. most would also have a son rather than a daughter, does that mean being/having a girl is a social flaw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJsushi Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Says pattaya127: I am talking about tolerance in society, not what dad and Mom want, that they may not be able to change. most would also have a son rather than a daughter, does that mean being/having a girl is a social flaw? Mom and Dad are "society" Mr 127. there is no way around that. There is no debate as to are Katoey "tolerated", I agree they are. But the question is are they fully "ACCEPTED" by Thai society? I argue they are not. Ask a katoey if he/she is accepted. They may tell you that their family loves them or their friends. They may tell you that their family does not recognize them and they are alone. Ask a Katoey if Thai society accepts them, you may get a mixed bag of answers but I am confident that the responses will be more on the negative. Katoey are viewed as a "them" group not an "us' group in Thai society. Why is that they are constantly ridiculed in the media and used as the butt of jokes by Thai comedians, soap operas, movies, etc? I really don't understand how you can debate that transgenders are full fledged members of Thai society but recently as a result of Western influences they are being stigmatized. Aside from naming a few examples of sales girls, some marriages and integration in village life, I fail to see where you find this universal acceptance and openess of Katoey in every facet of Thai society. Do really think that Thais cannot discriminate and ostracize their own without being influenced by the West? The stigma you are referring to is a natural stigma and not a Western artifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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